As per the following news report the chief of GTRE, Mr. T Mohana Rao has stated that only 2 more key milestones have to be passed before it is ready to be installed on the Tejas next year itself.

It must be noted that Mr. Rao has NOT made any mention of the Kaveri being fitted with Snecma’s core — whose timeline he had estimated to be 5-6 years from Aug. 2008. Thus, coldfire2005’s view that it shall have an indigenous core next year is accurate.

Kaveri in LCA by 2009

Bangalore, DHNS:

Kaveri engine will be installed into the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by the end of 2009, said Director of Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohan Rao.

Briefing newspersons on the sidelines of a function organised to mark the Raising Day function of GTRE at its premises at C V Raman Nagar, Rao said, “Two more milestones are yet to be crossed by the engine, prior to its installation which is likely to be by Dec 2009.” It has cleared all the tests for airworthy certification, he said. The engine is yet to be tried under fully simulated altitude conditions, which will take place in Moscow between February and March, next year. India’s consultants in the venture are CIAM of Russia, MTU of Germany and ATC in UK, he added.

Reference :-

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Nov72008/state2008110699318.asp

The same director is talking after the successful tests in September. Which one you give preference.

Please note that he mentioned the successful tests aboard the Russian test-bed for it’s air-worthiness. Now, the Kaveri will be tested on Tejas next year to test it’s worthiness of a fighter platform and also to test Tejas’ acceptability of Kaveri (as it has been “moulded” around the GE-404 since 12 years).

Out of curiosity, what is the purpose of installing an engine that will never be used in a production LCA? Or do I understand from your report of successful tests in September that there has been a sudden turnaround in the fortunes of the Kaveri?

Spitfire, I agree with your views. It may be recalled that it was announced recently, that Kaveri was to have a core from Snecma. Hence, the Kaveri that will be tested on Tejas next year may have Snecma’s core.

I would beg to differ.
JF-17 was designed around RD-93, and PAF (with knowledge of its advantages and limitations) went for it; they also did not have that much choice in those days. Given that JF-17 is a success, increasing TWR has been on cards for a long time which would likely include a more powerful engine (could even be another derivative of RD series for all we know at this stage) at some timepoint in future.

Gripen is also a different story. Built around an engine, and once proven they are going to upgrade it with a more powerful engine of the same series.

LCA’s story is somewhat different. It was designed with Kaveri in mind, but is forced to seek other engine/s because Kaveri is not around yet.

I disagree with the above. The RD-93 is also of the 79 kN class, as mentioned earlier. Thus, the JF-17 required a change of engine because it’s empty weight is 6.5 tons.

This is similar to the ‘pre-emptive’ switch from the 80kN GE-404 to the Volvo Aero F414G in case of Gripen-A —- also of the 6.4 ton class. The same “tradition” is being repeated with Tejas i.e. when it’s weight “ballooned” from 5.7 tons to 6.5 tons (another media “scandal”), the 79 kN GE-404 was deemed insufficient. It’s current speed specs are similar to the T-50, which too weighs 6.4 ton and uses a GE-404.

The respective news was “overblown” by the Indian media and “casually” taken by Pak media. In my view, the Pak media assessed the right weightage or “gravitas” of the situation, whereas the Indian media behaved “immaturely” and unprofessionally.

Again, Tejas was designed around the GE-404 since the outset when a contract was entered with GE in the 1980s (under Rajiv Gandhi’s regime) and the first Tejas rolled out in 1995 with GE-404 installed. In contrast, the Kaveri has till date, never been installed/tested in any fighter plane, leave alone Tejas.

There is no harm in focusing on the MCA. The LCA has not met expectation and there is only so much you can do with tweaks and late modifications.

The above is inaccurate. The Tejas has only been required to be installed with a new engine — the same problem that PAF chief has stated for the JF-17 also.

As per the latest news report posted by coldfire205 above, the Kaveri engine will be ready to be installed on Tejas by next year.

Now if they mess up the MCA as well, then ofcourse it would be terrible news.

The LCA was not “messed up”, as stated incorrectly above. The only issue is that of a newer engine, which follows the trend of all fighters of the 6.5 ton category that are powered by GE-404 engines/79 kN engines. Others in the 6.5 ton class that required engine changes were Gripen and JF-17; it was tolerated for the underpowered T-50 trainer.

Unfortunately, the Indian media in it’s “overzealousness”, had reported the issue as though it were a ‘scandal’, whereas the Pakistani media did not even bother about the announcement of JF-17’s urgent engine change. In my view, the Pak media acted more ‘maturely’ and ‘responsibly’.

India reveals plan to develop indigenous medium fighter

The Indian air force has approached the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which designed and developed India’s fourth-generation Tejas light combat aircraft, to prepare a detailed project report on the development of 20t medium combat aircraft (MCA) with stealth features.

To help phase out the air force’s Dassault Mirage 2000 and Hindustan Aeronautics-built Sepecat Jaguar strike aircraft by around 2015, the proposed twin-engined MCA would also augment the service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKIs and its planned future fleet of at least 126 medium multirole combat aircraft.

Strategic analysts in India believe the air force’s involvement augurs well for speeding up the project, as the service only had a peripheral role in developing the delayed Tejas, which is expected to be inducted into service from 2010. The new aircraft is also expected to use radar asorbent materials developed in India to reduce its radar cross-section.

In my view, it may be “gratifying” to finally know that the IAF has finally responded to repeated appeals of the indigenous MCA proposal of DRDO. IAF may be said to have “woken from it’s slumber”.

However, as it is clear that India cannot purchase and maintain 2 different types of 5th G fighter planes, there are definite fears that the MCA may evolve into merely an advanced version of F-15E or Eurofighter. This is completely contradictory to the viewpoint of DRDO, which has, since 2004, constantly projected the MCA as a “Next Generation Fighter” in the words of former and current chiefs, Dr. V K Aatre, Dr. Saraswat and Dr. Natarajan.

Thus, it must not so happen that the MCA is merely reduced to being a 4++ generation fighter plane, otherwise a lot of effort in the learning of the Tejas would not have been deployed to it’s full potential. For this to happen, the MCA must be a next generation plane as described by Dr. Natarajan.

The IAF would be advised to not “hanker” after the Russian PAK-FA, of which India will be given only a peripheral role to develop, and instead concentrate finances, attention and all it’s “energies” into the MCA instead.

Meanwhile, India’s plan to participate in a fifth-generation fighter project with Russia is expected to be finalised by year-end, with HAL’s role yet to be defined. United Aircraft president Alexey Fedorov says a prototype of the aircraft will be ready for trials during 2009.

In my view, it may be “ridiculous”, that HAL’s chairman Mr. Baweja still prefers to call the so-termed FGFA as a 50:50 venture between Russian and India despite the fact that India is entering the project at the 11th hour, after the PAK-FA’s design has already been finalized and is ready to make its debut flight just a few months from now.

Ink as discussed earlier in other threads, a JV to co-develop Kaveri has been considered since 2005. However, during the desert trials in Nagpur held only in June this year, it was ‘concluded’ that the current Ge-F404 S2J3 series of engines cannot provide the requisite thrust. The same conclusion was extended to the yet-to-be-installed GE-F404 IN20 and Kaveri also.

Once again, it must be noted that this was the view of the IAF, as a result of changing ASRs, which in turn had led to an increase in empty-weight by 1 ton , that could not be propelled in the desired manner by the current engine.

Mr. Fali Major has claimed that the 126 MRCA will begin induction by as early as 2012. This, when even the selection process of trials, detailed negotiations, winner announcement and contractual negotitations have yet to begin.
Thus, if the IAF is confident of achieving this, then the issuance of RFPs for Tejas’ engines, negotiations and installation and testing must be completed by 2011 only and not by 2015.

Instead of pessimism, it is good to hear that it will be inducted, even if only for training. Just hope this does not end up like ARjun MBT.

Venky, Tejas’ 2-seater trainer version shall be completed by this year and even then it is unlikely that as many as 20 trainers are required for just ‘training’, leave aside full-fledged single-seat fighters. Note that this is over and above the 8 LSP units that are to delivered to the IAF.

Thus, it is unclear what “training” these 20 (or 28?) fully armed Tejas units will provide.

For the record, it must be noted that Mr. Fali Major makes inconsistent statements. Only a month back, he had said that Tejas will be inducted by 2010. A month later now, the timeline has advanced by a “whopping” 5 years, whereas the 20 that were to be inducted in 2010 are now designated “trainers”.
It must be noted that the 2010 deadline was made well after the problems of Tejas’ inadequate thrust were brought to fore.

In my view, this kind of “careless jugglery” of the time-period of induction of a fighter so important to India — that too within a span of just 1 month — is totally inexplicable and ‘appalling’. Mr. Fali Major has also made similar ‘incoherent’ statements regarding the first-flight of the PAK-FA.

Another decision of the IAF that may demand further explanation is the basing of the Tejas’ first squadron in Sulur in South India. This, when the theatre of action of the IAF is along the borders with China and Pakistan and not in Sulur, where the only threat for a radius of 1,500 miles is the LTTE’s “toy” Air-Force.
It may be a ‘waste’ that new 4.5 G fighter planes will be being stationed (as though “punishingly”) in a region, where they are not needed at all, whereas forward bases along China and Pakistan will continue to station retiring MiG-21s and MiG-27s. The argument that Sulur is close to it’s technical base, Bangalore, is not an ‘excuse’.

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Russian fifth-generation fighter to perform maiden flight in 2009 – deputy minister

ST. PETERSBURG. Sept 24 (Interfax-AVN) – A Russian fifth-generation fighter will fly its maiden flight in 2009, Russian Deputy Industry and Trade Minister Yury Borisov told journalists at a conference in St. Petersburg on Tuesday.

The plane prototype already exists, and is based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Borisov said.

The aircraft will be equipped with Russian-made avionics, he said.

The principal contractor for building the fifth-generation fighter is the Sukhoi aircraft holding company. Most experts are of the view that the characteristics of the basic version of the Russian fifth-generation fighter will be competitive with those of its U.S. analogs.

It may be brought to attention that in the above Russian news report, there is no mention or acknowledgement of whatever “miniscule” stake India is meant to have in the PAK-FA. This may also be observed of nearly ALL past Russian news reports and articles about the PAK-FA.

In my view, the above puts paid to the totally misleading and bogus claims made by the IAF and the defence ministry since the past 2 years, that the PAK-FA is a 50-50 collaborative effort between India and Russia.

However, what may be even more ‘alarming’ is that the Indian media also “plays footsie” with the claims made by the IAF (however, they have now ceased to write “50% joint development” having ‘truncated’ it to only “co-development”).
In my view, it indicates that there is a concerted campaign to promote the PAK-FA to the Indian public as an Indo-Russian joint venture, when all facts and figures “under the noses” of both nations concerned indicate that the PAK-FA is by and for Russia only, with India having no technological contribution in it whatsoever. For an unknown reason, in India the establishment and media claim that it as a co-development.

As stated in the above news report, the first prototype has already been completed, and will be installed with Russian avionics. Now it is widely known that that India is still “hammering the details” of actually joining the PAK-FA project formally, and therefore the completed prototype at Komsomolsk-Amur has had no Indian participation in any form till date.

Thus, if and whenever India enters the project, there would not be anything left to contribute to the PAK-FA other than the mandatory 50% financial backing and risk-sharing to it. Thus practically, India would be an angel investor only, and not a technological partner to the PAK-FA.

There is also not going to be any collaborative effort from India that would be imbibed by the Russian Air-Force’s PAK-FA, similar to the collaboration between Russia’s Yakovlev design bureau and Lockheed Martin to add the “freestyle” to the F-35.

As per an interview by Mr. Fakruddin of HAL, India may develop a twin-seater variant of the PAK-FA, which he claimed may involve ‘significant work’. However, regardless of the fact that converting single-seaters to twin-seaters has historically never involved significant reworking, this still does not imply co-development at all, but rather a local customization only. There is no indication that Russia will be contractually bound to adopt the Indian twin-seater version.

It may be observed that the above news agency fails to even mention anything about India in the news report about PAK-FA. Note that it mentions, and I quote, “A Russian fifth generation military fighter … “

In my view, this may “speak volumes” about the ‘ground reality’ of the total and complete Russian ownership of the project, vis-a-vis the false claims made by the IAF and the Defence Ministry that it is a 50% joint-venture between India and Russia.