The Tejas is basically having problems I’m guessing with supersonic drag from its own shockwave. If you look at most modern day fighters they design them to incorporate some sort of contouring where there is no straightline airflow on the fuselage. Start with the F-102 and look how they contoured the body like a soda bottle. This new shape allowed the basic F-102 aircraft to pass through the air much more efficiently with the same amount of thrust. You’ll see this same bottleshape on the Mirage family, too. The Mirage IIIE has less thrust, more weight, and about the same surface area yet is able to fly at up to Mach 2.2 above 30,000 feet. The Tejas seems to be devoid of these characteristics.

Probably because the Gripen has lower drag, thanks to its longer and more slender fuselage, as well as having a more optimal position for the air intakes instead of the “armpit” position of the Tejas?

Actually I disagree with both these views, as the Gripen does not have a ”coke-bottle” shape. Its intakes protrude laterally and are prominent in front of the wings.

The Tejas’ intakes are more blended with the fuselage, and they are under the wings. Besides, the Tejas is shorter, and has lesser wingspan than Gripen, which should give it lesser drag than Gripen. The Tejas also does not have canards unlike Gripen, that increase drag by large margins.

If they raised the forward fuselage and drooped the nose more like how Sukhoi or Mikoyan designs have been the past thirty years, they might make it flow better.

The above is the characteristic of Russian designs only. The ”drooping” allows for vortex generation under the wing. Western designs have never been “hooded” like the now classical MiG-29 and Su-30.

References :
Gripen
Tejas

MKI is essentially a Russian product that was modified with Indian help and produced in India under licence. MMRCA would essentially be the same. PAK-FA…well all indications are that its going to be another MKI type project.

I agree with the above. Although the Su-30 MKI has Indian mission computers, RWR, radar processors, IFF and INCOM, the aircraft is similar to China’s J-11 i.e. a licenced Russian airframe customized for local specifications. The same model of development is likely to be followed for MRCA (PAK-FA’s design is already completed by Russia without any scope laid out for Indian localization).

LCA is the only project that is being designed and fighters will be produced in India, though they would form the lower tier of IAF.

The Tejas would actually form the upper tier of the IAF, as many technologies of the Tejas have been used first in the test bed of Su-30 MKI. Its only probable drawback vis-a-vis any imported MRCA would be A2G capability.

I personally dont have many hopes for MCA for one simple reason. COSTS…Take a look at JSF in spite of all the spin offs from F-22. Any true 5th gen fighter would be damn expensive for India (alone) and im not sure that even with growing economy India will be able to afford it in required numbers. So where does it leave Indian aerospace industry??? Do they jump to UCAV development straight from LCA (like some of their European counterparts)? If so, do they have the required expertise???

The cost of developing two 5th Gen fighter planes would be very prohibitive; however, developing any one of either the MCA, or angel financing the PAK-FA would be within India’s scope. I agree that abandoning the MCA in favour of funding the foreign-made PAK-FA would “slow down” the momentum of India’s aerospace industry that was generated by the Tejas.

So, what good is spending billions on the LCA and PAK-FA going to do for India????:confused: :confused: :confused:

Scooter, the issue is the sidelining of the indigenous MCA over a foreign origin PAK-FA. In some public speeches and media interviews, DRDO chief Dr Natarajan has given a brief description of the Medium Combat Aircraft, but it is unclear why there has been NO mention of it by the IAF and defence ministry.

It may be unjustified that when it comes to developing the next block of whatever indigenous hardware like MCA or Arjun, the DRDO is always “curtly” asked to complete the delivery of the current or prior version/project first. In case of MCA, it is asked to complete the LCA Tejas, and in case of Arjun II, it is asked to first conclude deliveries of the current ARjun.

However, just a few weeks after sending he RFPs for the 4.5G MRCA, the IAF has shown interest in the very longer term 5th G PAK-FA. Not only are tenders being sent for 197 light helicopters, they are being sent for heavy-lift copters also. The same is the case of SAMs (IAI being backlogged with Indian orders; SPYDER not yet delivered and still Barak-NG being on the cusp of finalization) and submarines—even though Gorshkov, 3 stealth frigates haven’t been delivered yet. This, after leaving the imminent arrival of the indigenous ATV aside (already “labelled” as Technology Demonstrator by the Naval Chief).

The following news report dating to 2003 from Flight Global, highlights the selected Russian suppliers for the important constituents of the PAK-FA :-

Key suppliers named for Sukhoi-led LFI fighter

The Russian government has selected key suppliers for the Sukhoi-led LFI fifth-generation fighter development programme.
Rosaviakosmos state agency general director Yuri Koptev says: “All tenders for co-developers have been finalised, and companies selected.” The LFI is scheduled to fly in 2006-7 and enter series production in 2010.
Ramenskoye RPKB and Aerospace Equipment will jointly development the integrated avionics suite. Avionics elements will be supplied by Polet, Ramenskoye RPKB, Tekhnocomplex, Tikho-mirov NIIP, and the Urals Optics Mechanical plant. KNIIRTI is tasked with the electronic countermeasures systems.
Engine development will follow a stepped approach, with the NPO Saturn AL-31 to be modified and uprated to power initial aircraft with the new AL-41 engine following later, says Koptev.

The decision was made despite the AL-41 completing initial ground tests that showed it could meet the LFI requirement. The engine is of a variable cycle design that received $1.5 billion development funding during the Soviet-era, and has been flown on a number of testbeds including the RSK MiG 1.42. The 33,000lb-thrust (156kN) class LFI derivative requires another $300 million to allow flight tests to start this year and to be ready to equip LFI prototypes.

“Although the key [systems] developers have been selected, we are ready to accept wider co-operation on each system and are open to all reasonable initiatives aimed at joining forces on development of various systems,” says Pogosyan.
LFI development is now at “draft design” stage – the digital mock-up was completed late last year – and set for completion next year.

Thus, from the above report it is clear that all the suppliers of avionics, integrated suite, optics, engines of the PAK-FA are exclusively Russian, and who had been selected after the design was finalized and was in the process of being drafted. The report projects the first flight by 2006 (now postponed to 2009). It is thus quite apparent that the design had already been frozen many years before India even started negotiations. This has also been confirmed by Shiv Aroor’s (noted defence jounalist) asking Mr. Alexei Fedorov in Moscow last month.

Hence it may be safely concluded that there is no Indian contribution in the PAK-FA as far as design, engineering or technology is concerned. India’s contribution would be limited to angel financing only.

Reference :-
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2003/06/10/166575/key-suppliers-named-for-sukhoi-led-lfi-fighter.html

It may be doubtful whether the IAF chief’s requirement of inducting MRCA jets by 2012 can be met. In a newspaper report, the “realistic” timeframe for induction was estimated to be in 2017.

This may be done by the IAF to avoid inclusion of Tejas as an MRCA contender (it may be mentioned that Tejas’ delay was one of the reasons the MRCA proposal was mooted in the first place in the early 2000s).

But now that Tejas development is progressing well, the IAF is making claims about MRCA being inducted as early as 2012. 2017 might arrive without any MRCA unit inducted in the IAF, and so when the IAF will be asked questions about the exclusion of Tejas from the “sweepstakes”, they may give the ‘excuse’ of some delays in negotiations etc.

Ya but he is no ADA insider is he? There are bound to be other a/c programs especially UCAV ones.

The IAF wants a 5G silver bullet against the PLAAF and PAF so PAK-FA.

Nick_76, actually that was a prediction based upon past actions taken by the services. Whenever foreign hardware is imported, the equivalent indigenous development is given a deadline on a purposely small budget, after which it is wound up. Examples are the Trishul vis-a-vis Barak/Spyder, the Barak-NG vis-a-vis an indigenous proposal, Akash (it has been given a deadline) and more recently, BEL’s ground based mobile electronic intelligence gathering system and the communication cum electronic counter measures system for the IAF.

We really dont know whether the PAK FA will replace the MCA or not rite now.
‘Coz there might be both..but it will take the LCA to be ready and get the IAF agree to divert now freed resources to the MCA program.

Logically, the above is valid but the probability of India designing and producing 2 fifth G combat jets like the US, is very small. This matter is subjective and may lead to un-conclusive debates, and hence may not be discussed further.

Plus they dont want a desparate (for finances) Russia to turn to China for financing, or sell it weaponry far better than currently released stuff so as to finance the PAKFA. No JSF or F-22 is ever going to China, but we couldnt say the same for the PAK-FA till india joined it.

China had refused to participate in the PAK-FA project many years back, as it has been pursuing the J-XX since a few years now. The reasons provided were the same as the Indian defence ministry did in Aug. 2006 i.e. No participation from “scratch”. However, unlike China, the Indian defence ministry and the IAF made a “volte-face” and accepted all the Russian terms and conditions of the PAK-FA, which were refused only a year ago on strong grounds of no Indian work-share from the Drawing board stage.

broncho, as per a Russian commentator, there is ambiguity in the date of first flight of the PAK-FA i.e. 2009 or 2012. The following is an excerpt from his article :-

“On October 18, President Vladimir Putin told a news conference that Moscow would develop such warplanes by 2015. Earlier, First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov had said a prototype fifth-generation fighter would perform its maiden flight in 2009, and that serial production would start in early 2010. But most experts were not so optimistic and predicted that the first warplane in this category would not appear before 2012-2014 — which was more in line with Mr. Putin’s statement.

”

Also, as per the head of Sukhoi corp. at Le Bourget Air Show, the PAK-FA shall make its first flight in 2009 :-

“Russia’s fifth generation fighter plane will be equipped with an AL-41F1 engine in the first stage, Sukhoi Director General Mikhail Pogosyan said.
:
:
Earlier, the Russian defence minister said a fifth generation plane would be built by 2009.

He said in January, while visiting India, that the Sukhoi aircraft maker planned a demonstration flight of its fifth generation jet fighter in 2009 and invited India to join the project.

”

However, what may be appalling from the above, are the following excerpts :-

“The fifth generation plane project has passed the stage of technological mock-up defence. We are now creating the working and design documentation,” the general said.

In his words, “Work to create fifth generation hardware is proceeding as scheduled.”

“In any case India informed us it will join Sukhoi’s project Russia has been implementing for three years,” he said.

“Russia’s Sukhoi has been designing a fifth generation jet fighter for three years and certain progress has been reached,” he said.

The fifth-generation plane is scheduled to make its maiden flight in 2009, the chief of the United Aircraft Corporation, Alexei Fyodorov, said.

“At this moment technical documentation is being developed. This part of the project is being accomplished in keeping with the expected schedule,” he said.

“There are very many complicated phases ahead, including that of mastering the production of dramatically new constructions and materials, including composite ones. These are going to be rather complicated processes and they are very hard to predict,” the unified aircraft corporation chief said. “It is hard for me to say at this point whether the plane will certainly go up in the air in 2009, or a little bit later. One can be more certain about that when the production process proper is underway.”

FYODOROV SAID ALL AVIONICS IN THAT PLANE WOULD BE OF RUSSIAN MANUFACTURE.

“As far as the project is concerned, this is going to be the most research intense and time-consuming phase,” he said. “The airframe and the platform are much made faster than the equipment they are ‘stuffed with.”’

In the above, Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Sukhoi corp has publicly stated that the project has passed the stage of mock-up defence. The working and design documentation (digitalization, as we discussed earlier) is already ongoing, without ANY Indian say or stake in the project till date. Mr. Fyodorov’s statements make it clear that the intended date for first flight is 2009, by which time the production process would be well underway.

When technical documentation is already being developed, as per Mr. Fyodorov, there has been no parallel consultation, discussion, approval or even consent from India to proceed ahead ! Even the production process is underway, while negotiations are yet to be finalized.

Besides, as the avionics on the PAK-FA will be Russian, it is amply clear that India will only be allowed to modify some (or improbably all) of the Russian avionics systems. It is confirmed that Russia will not induct Indian changes. Hence, it only needs Indian funding.

References :-

1) An ambitious Russia-India fighter plane project, Yuri Zeitsev, Nov. 21, 2007.

2) Russia working on first-stage engine for 5th generation planeTASS
June 20, 2007 Wednesday 02:36 PM EST (courtesy of JaiS, bharat-rakshak forum).

The following comment of a member by name, Deoratsingh in another discussion panel is very apt :-

“With PAKFA agreement with Russians, now MCA would be cancelled as well. So after LCA and may be LCA II, the Indian capability to design and build Fighters would stagnate and retard. The electronics inputs in 5 th Gen PAK FA( MKIzing) would not be a subtitute for experience in designing and building MCA, unless DRDO teams up with MIG or French; for single Engine MCA or / with twin TVC kaveri MCA.“

I think that the above is an “all encompassing” summary of what the PAK-FA deal shall result for the Indian military aviation.

As per the following news report, top visiting Russian officials in India have stated that the first flight trials of the PAK-FA shall commence in 2009 :-

Indo-Russian agreement soon on PAK-FA

BANGALORE: With an Inter-Government Agreement on the Indo-Russian Multi-Functional Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, PAK-FA just round the corner, the Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau has worked out a plan to commence flight trials of the aircraft in 2009 and begin serial production by 2015.

The ambitious aircraft project would mark a decisive shift in Indo-Russian military cooperation, riding on the success of the ongoing Sukhoi-MKI project. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has conducted the preliminary survey and analysis of the multi-billion dollar project. Defence Minister A.K. Antony and his Russian counterpart discussed the agreement draft when they met two weeks ago.

Reference :-

http://www.hindu.com/2007/02/08/stories/2007020806230500.htm