You guys are getting just a bit carried away and I mean debaters from both camps.

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*There are 2 verifed shot down aircraft. 1 x F-117 and 1 X F-16

*Several more (no one knows exactly how many) were damaged.

*The Serbs during the conflict made exagerated claims…so did Nato!

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Nobody from Serbia made an official claim of “hundreds” of shot down aircraft.
What you’re reffering to is media hysteria and propaganda.

At the end of the war (1999), the commander of the PVO said that 60 + aircraft have been shot down.

Last year (2005) there was a official revision made and the number has been reduced to 38 aircraft that have been HIT by a SAM (a SAM connecting with a target on the radar screen)….* not shot down *.

The number has been reduced to 38, after a revision of the data and some of the targets hit are believed to have been decoys. There is independent evidence of at least some Nato aircraft making emergency landings in neighbouring states

Now for the sake of argument, it’s more than likely that some of the damaged aircraft did crash on the way back to base.

So what are the serials of these crashed and written off aircraft that ‘crashed on the way back to base’?. The ejection seat manufacturers would also have to be in the cover-up and falsifying their records. Obviously you don’t understand this fact. Where is the accident report for those aircraft that are missing from the inventory? For this to be fact that ‘damaged aircraft crashed on the way back to base’ then scores of aircrew must have ejected from their aircraft.

Purely on the political front. Clinton was in charge. He is already on the record as stating that there was no combat casualties sustained on the NATO front during the conflict. Under his command there was the loss of a stealth aircraft. Do you honestly believe that if scores of manned aircraft had been lost under his command that they would still be hidden from the public?

It really is up to you guys to start providing serial numbers for these ‘missing aircraft? Explain to this thread how exactly they are covering up aircraft ‘A’ being missing from the inventory? How do they keep it a secret from the auditors or the tax payers. How do they keep it a secret from Congress?

Study the numbers of countries taking part in combat ops and tell me how multi-national losses are being covered up after 7 years? It must be some fantastic mind or group organising this and still achieving their aim after 7 years 😀

TEEJ

Interesting but i have to tell you the other side of the History, according to a Russian TV program i watched named “Udarnaja Sila” that talked about the MiG-29 claimed, the MiG-29 Fulcrum Shot down a F-117, consider this is a TV Program,: Yefim Gordon in His Book MiG-29 Fulcrum even claimed the Djuvic even recieved a medal by Slodoban Milosevic him self for his kill.

According to Gregory R. Copley who wrote in ” The International Strategies Studies Assosiation Journal”, (US) May, 1999; the US lost not one but three F-117, one of those was shot down by a MiG-29.

This was a US publication with access to “highly reputable sources”

The Serb Air Force contrary to your claims does not admitt only two aircraft as shot down.

Udarnaja Sila has interviews with Valery Menitsky and other people involved in the MiG-29 program and excellent footage by the way

Flogger, you really do live in a complete fantasy world.

You do realise that the Editor of AFM, Alan Warnes has recently visited Batajnica and interviewed Serb commanders? Not one Yugoslav pilot made ANY claim against ANY manned combat aircraft. Not one Yugoslav pilot even makes a claim of launching any air-to-air missiles or firing his cannon during any engagement. Yugoslav aviation enthusiast Mark Nixon even interviewed some of the pilots in person. Tom Cooper has also made contact with some of them and yet still not one claim from any MiG-29 pilot of ANY air-to-air claim? The nearest that any MiG-29 pilot got was Major Arizanov who was about to arm his R-27s when he was hit by an AMRAAM on the 24 March 1999. Arizanov unable to control his aircraft ejected over Kosovo.

The info regarding the claimed MiG-29 shoot down of F-117A, serial 82-806, was published in Yefim Gordon’s book “Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum – Multi-Role Fighter”. This book was published in 1999. On page 122 there is an article taken from Russian Ministry of Defence daily “Krasnaya Zveda” in late May99 which states that the F-117A, serial 82-806, had been destroyed by a MiG-29 flown by Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic and that he had been awarded a medal by Milosevic for doing so. It is now nearly seven years since the conflict and still no Yugoslav pilot is honoured or citated for bringing down any F-117 or any NATO aircraft. Alan Warnes visited Batajnica and still no word of this fighter pilot who brought down an F-117? Do you not think that he would be the toast of the 127th LAE? Flogger, note the serial? Even Yefim credits this F-117 as 82-806.

Have you actually read Yefim Gordon’s claims in that book. He has a number of MiG-29s shot down by hostile force during the Yugoslav break up. These he even has down by serial number! Strange that those ‘shot down’ MiG-29s were still in the inventory pre Allied Force?

Flogger, have you ever wondered why you haven’t heard any more from Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic? Do you not think that ‘Gvozden’ would be a national hero? Does it not make you wonder why the Serbs media lists Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic as a commander of an air defence unit? You do realise that the commander of the 204 Fighter Regiment was Colonel Pavlovic and that no Yugoslav pilot named Gvozden Djukic ever existed?

Gvozden Djukic was the alias given to Dani Zoltan. Dani Zoltan was the commander of the 3rd battery of the 250th Rocket Brigade that shot down F-117A serial 82-806. It was Colonel Dani Zoltan that received the medal from Milosevic. As per the ghost writers embellishing MiG-29 pilot post combat records they also gave Dani Zoltan a Yugoslav name to hide his Hungarian ethnic background. It wasn’t until 2000 that Dani Zoltan emerged from his alias and was interviewed in the documentary “For Free Sky”.

“highly reputable sources”

Flogger, please give it a rest. Every single F-117 was noted by aviation enthusiasts during the conflict. Please inform all of us as to which airframe by serial is missing from the inventory? Ask Arthur about the the exploits of spotters during the conflict. Please contact Gregory R. Copley again after this long 7 years and ask him about the following claims he made back in 1999?

I apologise to the seasoned military enthusiast for publishing this complete and utter non-sense from Flogger’s source Gregory R. Copley. Flogger, can you come up with a more reputable source other than Gregory R. Copley? Apologies for laughing at you Flogger, but you must choose your sources far more carefully. Flogger maybe you can contact Gregory R. Copley and let him provide you with an update of all those undisclosed NATO losses in both manpower and equipment?

Flogger, maybe he can give you a run down again on what info is contained on a US or UK dog-tag? Gregory seems very informed on such matters? Chortle! Anyway Flogger, back to you! Flogger’s next source “Come on down!” Will you be bringing Venik as your next source? 😀

http://agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19990507natolosses.php

“NATO Losses and the Military Costs: It is clear from the amount and quality of intelligence received by this journal from a variety of highly-reputable sources that NATO forces have already suffered significant losses of men, women and materiel. Neither NATO, nor the US, UK or other member governments, have admitted to these losses, other than the single USAF F-117A Stealth fighter which was shown, crashed and burning inside Serbia.

The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff had denied, about a month into the bombing, that the US had suffered the additional losses reported to Defense and Foreign Affairs.

By April 20, 1999, NATO losses stood at approximately the following:

38 fixed-wing combat aircraft;
Six helicopters;
Seven unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs);
‘Many’ Cruise Missiles (lost to AAA or SAM fire).
Several other NATO aircraft were reported down after that date, including at least one of which there was Serbian television coverage. The aircraft reportedly include three F-117A Stealth strike aircraft, including the one already known. One of the remaining two was shot down in an air-to-air engagement with a Yugoslav Air Force MiG-29 fighter; the other was lost to AAA (anti-aircraft artillery) or SAM (surface-to-air missile) fire. Given the recovery by the Yugoslavs of F-117A technology, and the fact that the type has proven less than invincible, the mystique of the aircraft — a valuable deterrent tool until now for the US — has been lost.

At least one USAF F-15 Eagle fighter has been lost, with the pilot, reportedly an African-American major, alive and in custody as a POW.

At least one German pilot (some sources say two men, implying perhaps a Luftwaffe crew from a Tornado) has been captured.

There is also a report that at least one US female pilot has been killed.

In one instance in the first week of the fighting, an aircraft was downed near Podgorica. A NATO helicopter then picked up the downed pilot, but the helicopter itself was then shot down, according to a number of reports.

Losses of US and other NATO ground force personnel, inside Serbia, have also been extensive.

A Yugoslav Army unit ambushed a squad climbing a ravine south of Pristina, killing 20 men. When the black tape was taken from their dog-tags it was found that 12 were US Green Berets; eight were British special forces (presumably Special Air Service/SAS). This incident apparently occurred within a week or so of the bombing campaign launch.

It is known that other US and other NATO casualties have, on some occasions, been retrieved by NATO forces after being hit inside Yugoslavia. At least 30 bodies of US servicemen have been processed through Athens, after being transported from the combat zone.

At least two of the helicopters downed by the Yugoslavs were carrying troops, and in these two a total of 50 men were believed to have been killed, most of them (but not all) of US origin.

Certainly, the US has lost to ground fire and malfunction a number of Tomahawk Cruise Missiles. At least some of these have been retrieved more or less intact, and the technology has been immediately reviewed by Yugoslav engineers. More than one told this writer that the technology was now readily able to be replicated in Yugoslavia.

The war has cost Alliance members in other ways, too. There is enormous disaffection with the US Armed Forces. For a start, to prosecute even the smallest expansion of the war requires the call-up of Reserve and National Guard units. The personnel from these units have civilian jobs, and, as with the US involvement in S-FOR in Bosnia-Herzegovina, being called up for active duty in the Balkans seems to be an open-ended thing. This is not the type of national emergency for which most of them signed-on. “

Perhaps the finest dogfight of the fourth generation, has had limited success according to many and in Russia is consider to have shot down even an F-117, some claimed it shot down some Panavia Tornados,

Had been the finest dogfighter an aircraft that has been uncapable to reach it`s Max potential as a dogfighter?

The MiG-29 surpasses the F-15, F-16 and F-18 in turn rates and acceleration, has excellent short range missiles and a HMS, was the first aircraft capable to do the Pugachev`s Cobra, more than 1500+ have been produced.

In recent years has recovered the export segment it lost to it`s bigger brother the Su-27, new variants promise an excellent multirole capability.

Flogger,
You are off in your fantasy world again. No Yugolsav pilot made any claim against any F-117. Your claims of MiG-29 claiming Tornadoes is also dubious.
Colonel Dani Zoltan was the commander of the SA-3 unit that shot down F-117 82-806. It was only after the conflict that the alias used at the time was revealed. The Serbian alias ‘Gvozden Djukic’ had been used to describe the ethnic Hungarian commander in some propaganda articles. This was apparently in an effort to hide his ethnicity. It was the propaganda ghost writers and Russian articles that made ‘Gvozden Djukic’ a MiG-29 pilot.

This was the propaganda put out at the time:

“Lt.Col. Gvozden Djukic: “Suddenly I saw a dot of light in the sky, and I headed by aircraft towards it. I realized that I was doing a head-on attack. The first missile I fired against it struck it in that head-on course.”

Few hours later Gvozden Djukic (and the whole world) knew due to the TV coverage that his victim had been one of the -until that time- considered invincible stealth fighters F-117A Nighthawks. After that it was clear that the stealth fighter was neither invisible nor immune to the helmet-mounted gunsight of the MiG-29 and their missiles R-73 Archer .”

TJ

WRONG Again, if you know anything about Military planning and strategy, you’ll understand for NATO to use 160 planes against a nation with 79 planes and then increace the number between 200-300 planes, doesn’t look suspicious, but to increace by 840 planes, clearly shows that they (NATO) were lossing Hundreds of planes. Here some more reports you can “CROSS REFERANCE” : April 30 An F-117A of the 49th FW was damaged during strike mission by a nearby explosion of an SA-3 SAM, “…causing loss of part of the tail section, but the aircraft was able to return safely to Spangdahlem air base, Germany.” (source: Air Force Monthly, July 1999, p. 75)
This a aeronautics.ru has a link to an American report which you’l find interesting, I can give you dozens of Russian reports of multiple NATO planes shot down, but you Americans always use the excuse, “Thats a Russian report it’s bias, we wont believe it” http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/americanspectator002.htm heres an Agency France report: http://www.aeronautics.ru/natodownafp01.htm

Examine those Russian and Serb reports of aircraft shot down. Count up how many of those reports have the aircraft coming down inside Serb territory? All those hundreds of manned aircraft lost and not one piece of wreckage can be found apart from F-117A 82-806 and F-16CG 88-0550.

How are the aircraft losses being covered up? Have the production lines been secretly re-opened? You obviously live in a fantasy world. With your figures there would have been scores of aircrew taken prisoner of war or killed. Can you explain why no families have come forward asking where their sons or daughters are? Please don’t come back with any fantasy claims of next of kin being told that their loved ones were lost in accidents unrelated to Allied Force.

It has been nearly seven years since the start of the conflict and still not one piece of wreckage has been found to substantiate your claims of undisclosed losses. The magic pixies must have been hard at work to cover up all those losses from all those air forces that participated. Ask yourself how many of those governments are no longer in power and yet still none of those losses have come to light.

Imagine how many individuals and groups would love to drop Clinton in it? Clinton is on record as saying there was no allied combat casualties during the conflict. All those manned combat aircraft lost and still no family has come forward asking for the whereabouts of their loved ones?

There was no body repatriation via the ICRC (Red Cross). The only prisoners of war exchanged was the US Army soldiers captured from Macedonia/Yugoslav border. On the Serb side there was two Yugoslav soldiers repatriated after capture by KLA in Kosovo.

Over to you. No doubt you’ll come back with all the conspiracy non-sense

SOC

Any serious analisys will show you that the F-15 or F-16 never were better in Serbia or Iraq to the MiG-29 in terms of technology, first the F-15 and F-16 never have shot in air to air more than ten MiG-29s, they have not shot down any Su-27.

What gave them superiority was sheer numbers and the overall tactical situation.

The MiG-29 has claimed several kills among them several aircraft among them Panavia Tornadoes, MiG-21s and a F-117

Flogger,
You are off in your fantasy world again. No Yugolsav pilot made any claim against any F-117. Your claims of MiG-29 claiming Tornadoes is also dubious.
Colonel Dani Zoltan was the commander of the SA-3 unit that shot down F-117 82-806. It was only after the conflict that the alias used at the time was revealed. The Serbian alias ‘Gvozden Djukic’ had been used to describe the ethnic Hungarian commander in some propaganda articles. This was apparently in an effort to hide his ethnicity. It was the propaganda ghost writers and Russian articles that made ‘Gvozden Djukic’ a MiG-29 pilot.

This was the propaganda put out at the time:

“Lt.Col. Gvozden Djukic: “Suddenly I saw a dot of light in the sky, and I headed by aircraft towards it. I realized that I was doing a head-on attack. The first missile I fired against it struck it in that head-on course.”

Few hours later Gvozden Djukic (and the whole world) knew due to the TV coverage that his victim had been one of the -until that time- considered invincible stealth fighters F-117A Nighthawks. After that it was clear that the stealth fighter was neither invisible nor immune to the helmet-mounted gunsight of the MiG-29 and their missiles R-73 Archer .”

TJ

NATO came with 1000 Planes to Serbia, which only had 79 War Planes, why so much airpower if MiG-29’s are infireor :confused: :rolleyes: 😀 BTW it’s NATO thats speaking ilogically, U.S. lost 38 planes in Gulf War 1, now what type of tech did U.S.& NATO have over Kosavo for them (U.S./NATO) to lose only 1 F-117, 1 F-16, AND A UAV? :confused:

Consider the number of SAMs launched by the Iraqis compared to the Serbs. Iraqi air defences were huge compared to Serb. Consider the fact that Allied aircraft flew low-level missions in the initial stages of Desert Storm. Even the B-52s went in low-level during the initial stages. One B-52 got shredded by a SAM during one of those low level airfield attacks.

You’ll be telling us next that 100s of F-15 and F-16s were in the packages that shot down the Serb MiG-29s during March and May 1999.

The F-15 and F-16 never have shot down 150 MiG-29s or Su-27s.

Serbia or Iraq had really few MiG-29s while the US fielded several hundred F-15s and F-16s in each war besides several hundred more Mirage 2000, Panavia Tornadoes, Mirage f1 F-18s and F-14s.

The Iraqi lost less than 10 MiG-29s and Serbia too.

Field 100 MiG-29s versus 100 F-16 and tell me who rules having both air forces AMRAAM and R-77s

The West hardly acknowledges any Iraqi or Serb kill.

No Yugoslav MiG-29 pilot makes any claim for an air-to-air kill during Allied Force. No Yugoslav pilot even made any claim for launching any air-to-air missiles or firing their cannon at an airborne target.

Germany had excelent pilots but you are right in the western front the Luftwaffe was uncapable to beat the Us and England.

That was a matter of numbers, in Russian was different because Germany destroyed many I-16s on the ground, but once Russia got better fighters they reversed the course of the war.

Germany`s Luftwaffe fought in Holland, Belgium, Greece, Spain, France, Poland, Yugoslavia, England, Norway, Russia, Ukraine, Libya and few words Germany fought many air forces and defeated most of them.

Same is Japan.

England during the battle of England hardly could rotate pilots.

One of the reason the US pilots rotated pilots is simply the sheer numbers they had of aircraft.
neverthelss hardened battle pilots in the Luftwaffe were good pilots.

In the Korean war experience gave to the americans some edge against less experienced north Korean and Chinese pilots

experience is quit important to give the skills needed.

The ‘Battle of England’ ???