Those are Kuwaiti. Saudi Arabia also operated the Lightning.

Flogger, I’m talking about blatant propaganda as used as a tool by the Yugoslav Ministry of Information during the conflict. They embellished combat reports resulting in claims of Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots shooting down NATO aircraft. These claims still exist today as you found out in Russian military press. The Russians are not lying, but simply re-telling tales from the conflict that they beleive happened. Milo’s own advisors even revealed the extent that those claims went to. The claims went to the fantastic of several F-117s downed, B-52s, B-2s aircrew as PWs, Luftwaffe F-4s shot down with pilots killed and captured and it spiralled completely out of control. Seven years later and you yourself are still falling for those blatant outrageous claims made at the time. You even try to label them as “claims by Historians”.

I pose you a question. If NATO lost scores of airframes then why haven’t they publically acknowledged that those aircraft were lost in accidents in the Balkans? Scores of combat lost airframes could simply be written off as war-time accidents. Flogger you would be happy and you could post your roll-eyes comments of “another accident”. So do you now believe that accidents are being covered up?

For example you believe that an F-15 was lost in the Balkans. Can you provide the serial number for this F-15? Why didn’t NATO just say that it was an accident to cover up the combat loss? Flogger which airframe from that period is missing today from the inventory?

Over to you Flogger. You are still talking in riddles and providing me and this thread with nothing but hearsay. Take a break. Do some detailed research into serials and the world of aircraft spotting enthusiasts. Use the contacts that I have supplied you and clarify things in your own mind instead of dragging up fantasy MiG-29 pilots and stories written by Yugoslav Ministry of Information ghost writers. You really need to quantify blatant fabricated stories and tales from reality and simply stop passing them off as “some historians believe”

The question is How many pictures you can get from the MiG-29s shot down by F-15, F-16s and Su-27? and by that i mean good pictures where is obvious the kill.

I have seen like 3 pictures where you see evidence clearly of a MiG-29 shot down and one that is not clear can be a any aircraft.

There rest are basicly claims.

The MiG-29 have also claims some are even other MiG-29s shot down by MiG-29s, some are Panavia Tornadoes, Su-27s, Su-22s, MiG-21s, (F-117 let`s forget for a minute this one) and MiG-23BNs, a claimed F-15 in the Balkans and so on.
Here is a Russian news paper claiming only one MiG-29 was lost by Eritrea
Eritrean MiG-29 shot down
The list is longer than acknolewdeged
from http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/downedmig29.htm

and

Flogger wrote:

“There rest are basicly claims”

“Lawyer Dragisa Vukasinovic, files criminal charges against the Yugoslav Army Anti-Aricraft Defense Commander, general Spasoje Smiljanic. Participants: Dragisa Vukasinovic, lawyer, Slobodan Peric, lt. Colonel , Air Force pilot PILOTS ACCUSE SUPERIORS OF MALFUNCTIONING AIRCRAFT Lt. Colonels of
the Yugoslav Air Force, Slobodan Peric and Predrag Milutinovic today, told the public about the problems encountered with malfunctioning aircraft during the NATO aggression. Lt. Colonel Peric speaking at a press conference in the Media Center called on the occasion of filing criminal charges against the Anti-Aircraft Defense Commander of the Yugoslav Army general Spasoje Smiljanic, that his aircraft had been downed due to the malfunction of vital equipment in action.

His aircraft was hit on March 26 after having engaged in a fight with NATO planes, although his radar and equipment signaling he had been spotted by the enemy craft became inoperative. Peric saved himself by ejecting at an altitude of 7,000 meters. Zoran Radosavljevic who flew with him was
killed in action..

Peric and Milutinovic noted that Smiljanic was directly responsible for the malfunctioning of the plane, since as the first man in the chain of air force command he must have known the state of repair of its equipment.

Lawyer Dragisa Vukasinovic yesterday filed criminal charges against Smiljanic for the criminal offense of non-acting for the protection of a military unit. Vukasinovic said he had knowledge that a Yugoslav Air force MIG 29 had not been overhauled despite the fact that it was due for repair. The charges state that the malfunctioning of the vital equipment caused the downing of six aircraft in the same unit, and that two pilots were killed. Vukasinovic says the criminal offense Smiljanic is charged with is punishable with 15-year imprisonment.”

The six aircraft detailed in the above court case were as follows:

24th March 99 MiG-29s piloted by Arizanov, Milutinovic and Nikolic who all ejected safely. Illic managed to land his combat damaged MiG-29 in an airfield emergency landing on the 24th. Subsequently, one USAF F-16, serial 90-0830, that sported a MiG-29 air to air kill had it removed. 26th March 1999 two MiG-29s shot down over Bosnia, Peric ejected safely, but his wingman Radosavljevic was killed. 4th May 1999 Pavlovic (CO of 204 Fighter Regiment) was killed.

All of those 6 lost MiG-29 in aerial combat dovetail completely with NATO claims and kills from F-16s and F-15s.

So Flogger your “ALL THE REST ARE JUST CLAIMS” is simply a figment in your imagination. Remember that they dovetail exactly with NATO claims and times of events. These weren’t added long after the event, but claimed at the time. Over to you Flogger. I would like you to wriggle out of this one? Flogger remember that two downed pilots gave evidence at the court case?

TEEJ

Honestly let`s do this i do feel bored by the discussion, specially the western links you give me, or the personal so called witness proof, i won`t addmit it to tell you the truth as evidence only official evidence from Serbia if they Say we did not shot down a F-117 with a MiG-29 and if they say Officiallly we shot down only two aircraft, you have not provided it to me, i have not evidence too so let`s do this when i have more evidence i will re-open the subject to you in the meantime we are already in a loop and that is quit boring to me.

Official Serbian acknowledgement proves totally and utterly any claim, if it is written in a Serbian official link such as the Serbian Ministry of Defence or Air force it proves your point, unless they say otherwise i feel is useless as a historical point of view of an one sided History, Serbia also has it`s version and the right to tell it too.

Regards

Sorry mate, but claiming you are ‘bored’ doesn’t wash. E-mail the contacts that I have provided for you. It is a simple thing to do in order to put the
matter of ‘Gvozden Dujic’ to rest in your mind. You are obviously under the impression that Gvozden Djukic’is a real 127 lae pilot. Contact Alan Warnes, the editor of AFM. [email]edafm@keypublishing.com[/email] He recently visited the 204 Figher Regiment. Ask him to use the official contacts he made within Serbia and Montenegro to put the matter to rest. It is a simple thing to do and the onus is on you to do so. You seem very content with the ‘MiG-29 V F-117’ story as was Yefim Gordon. In fact why don’t you contact Yefim Gordon through his publisher to see if he still after 7 years accredits an F-117 kill to a MiG-29?. [email]airlife@airlifebooks.com[/email] Make sure you send him the interview with Colonel Dani Zoltan.

After the conflict Serb government officials revealed the details of the intense propaganda campaign.

This disinformation campaign spiralled completely out of control resulting in claims of B-52s and B-2s shot down inside Serbia.This campaign was revealed in

“INAT: Images of Serbia and the Kosovo Conflict” by Scott Taylor He describes an interview with Bojan Bugarcic on 25th November 1999 (Bugarcic, was the

Senior Advisor on International Affairs to Yugoslav President Milosevic)

The relevant passage follows on pp 123-124:

“He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. “Using the state broadcaster, unofficial ‘Russian intelligence’ web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting ‘pure lies,’ his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. “He was devestated when he learned the truth.”

The legacy of this disinformation campaign was that it made it into official and semi-official Russian military publications. Flogger do you honestly believe
that B-2s were shot down just because it appeared in ‘Red Star’? All those Russian publications were doing was a blatant parody of the intense propaganda campaign.

Today this disinformation campaign is still reflected by posters on AFM and on several Internet forums.

In fact you have also been fooled by the disinformation campaign in relation to ‘Gvozden Djukic’. It was the ghost writers an propagandists who altered the post combat reports of Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots that also produced ‘Gvozden Djukic’s’ report. Yugoslav aviation enthusiast Mark Nixon, who lives in Serbia has already interviewed Serb MiG-29s pilots. They were most upset that the ghost writers had given them fantastic claims of NATO kills and embelished their reports with cheap propaganda.

This MiG-29 pilot ‘Gvozden Djukic’ was claimed with the following from Red Star:

“According the Djukic, he had spotted the lone enemy aircraft at dusk 1.5km ahad whil flyin a combat air patrol mission on Serbia’s western border,
recognising it instantly as an F-117 by its distinctive shape. The fighter-bomber started disintegrating after being hit by the first missile and the pilot
ejected right away. ‘I felt as pleased as an Indian that had just taken a scalp, or even more,’ Djukic recounted. ‘Capt Ken Dwilli probably didn’t know we were hunting for him when he flew to wreak death and destruction on our cities. He also hadn’t heard of out proverb, “A black sheep is a bad sheep,” and Mr Dwilli’s squadron was named “Black Sheep”. (TJ comment. Yet again Yefim Gordon using dodgy sources. Even he and the ghost writer believes that just because a name was on the side of the F-117 canopy that he had to be the pilot)

Part of Major Nikolic’s interview. Major Nikolic was shot down on 24 March 1999. The 127lae pilots were most upset that sheer and blatant propaganda had been added to their accounts by Yugoslav ghost writers.

An example from the published account of Major Nikolic as released by Yugoslav Army Supreme Command Headquarters – Information Service, April 1999

“Although they are denying their losses, it’s a known fact that the Yugoslav skies have become a graveyard for western planes and pilots. This is mostly due to the fact that we fight with our heart and with the determination to are defend our country, and they are doing it for money and a with life insurance…..

When I reached the altitude of about 2000 meters I decided to catapult myself out of the burning jet. As I was gliding down with my parachute, enemy planes kept circling around me trying to locate me in the dark and riddle me with bullets. They kept firing blindly, fortunately missing me and for this I am very eager to meet with them again. Only Goerings Luftwaffe pilots in World War II acted like that. In that respect the airman attacking our country are no different from the Nazis…..

I landed in the middle of a field some 400 meters away from my burning MiG. The flames were illuminating the entire area so I quickly moved away to escape the persistent NATO pilots from locating me and killing me. In the darkness of the nigh I found refuge in an irrigation trench.”

An example of this disinformation campaign’s legacy can readily be seen with KOBRAFORCES post:

Even though no Yugoslav MiG-29 pilot makes ANY claim of air-to-air kill, despite them having been interviewed, the following still appears:

KOBRAFORCES wrote:

‘well i heard than an American F-15C was shot down by a MIG 29 over Bosnia by a serbia mig 29.’

No doubt it will be backed up by images of F-15s venting fuel over Bosnia! Sigh!

Flogger, why no in-depth comment on the F-117 serials that I have provided for you? Sorry, but the claims of ‘Western sources’ doesn’t wash. I have just provided you with proof that all Allied Force F-117s are still in the inventory, bar 82-806. Shouldn’t you be e-mailing all the aviation magazines with details of this obvious blatant proof of cover-up? You honestly believe that a further two are missing from the Allied Force inventory. Flogger maybe you can submit an e-mail letter to AFM? I suggest a title “USAF obviously very busy since Allied Force with pots of paint – Cover up – Conspiracy!”… blah blah blah – insert proof quoting Red Star and their infamous MiG-29 pilot Gvozden Djukic. Remember Flogger the F-117s are going to be out of the inventory within the next couple of years. How will you react to all those serials still being in the inventory? What will be your excuse then? Busy work with pots of paint? Replicas being built? Production lines secretly re-opened?

The source for the F-117s is Air Force Monthly….maybe you should ask them for an explanation.

Here’s a few more examples of dubious Nato “explanations”

Another “accident”…a Kiowa that crashed right on the Bosnia-Serbia border due to “mechanical failure”

That’s a lot of “training” and “accidents” in the middle of a war….Forgive me if I find these explanations just a tad questionable

Think how many sorties were flown during that period. You bring as evidence a crashed SFOR OH-58. Just what do you think an OH-58 was doing flying a combat mission into Serbia? The US didn’t even allow AH-64s into combat ops, so what do your think they were they doing with an SFOR marked OH-58?

When the AH-64s went down in Albania the Serb media and other ran numerous stories of Serb SF sniper teams taking them out and claims of Serbs with MANPADS. They even had claims of the Serb Air Force flying raids against Rinas destroying numerous other Apaches.

The AV-8B was pilot error. The pilot received an endorsement due to his error.

Even the Yugoslav Air Force suffered accidents with their MiG-29s. Major Tesanovic stalled his MiG-29 on the 26th March 1999 on approach to landing. He successfully ejected.

Aircraft during Allied Force are no different to any other intense period of operations. Aircraft, just as in peacetime, suffer from all sorts of mechanical problems resulting in in-flight emergencies. You’ll find the same in any air force. Think of the intense training and combat ops going on in that period alone. Thousands of sorties undertaken and aircraft did suffer in-flight emergencies. For example the F-15C that sat down at Tuzla along with his wingman while on a CAP over Bosnia.

At one point the mad Serb media were trying to link US aircraft crashes during this period with reported crashes all over the world!

The type of reports from 1999:

‘Radio Toronto recently reported the crash of a NATO aircraft ‘in Israel’ (!?), when the pilot and ’22 parachuters’ were killed. Allegedly, those were amateur parachuters who had come from America to train for some sort of a championship. The news would have been swallowed if only 72 hours earlier the news had not leaked on the crash of a helicopter ‘in Japan’ (three killed), then another crash of F-15 over ‘Puerto Rico’ (one killed), then new helicopter accidents ‘in Kentucky’ (eleven killed) and Arizona (12 killed). The only connection to Kosovo was made by an American TV reporter when she was talking about the ‘Kentucky’ accident, but it was only said that they had been ‘training’ for their September schedule in this Serbian province. However, even the laymen know that these fabricated reports are only the attempts for creating such a situation, suitable for sending messages to the hundreds of families about “tragic losses during military drills”. Even the tragic-comic comments have been heard that CNN and other spokesmen of the alliance could launch the news that “three newly-trained pilots” have died. NATO knows very well that four F-4 aircraft of the German Airforce did not come back from this monstrous mission over Yugoslavia. According to the information of the Russian Ministry of Defence, one two-men crew died when the aircraft exploded in the air, while other three crews were found and captured by the Yugoslav Army. In the air combat on March 26, seven kilometers to the South of Pancevo, a Yugoslav MIG-29 downed an American F-16C, whereas another four bombers of the same type were downed by the Yugoslav anti-aircraft defence. Two Canadian F/A-18C were shot down and destroyed together with their pilots 11 kilometers to the South of Ruma, and because of that the American northern neighbour sent additional aircraft to Italy on March 30. Yugoslav MIG-21 managed to blow up an American two-seater F-15E on March 27, which the BBC reported the same day. At least one “Tornado IDS” was downed between March 24 and 26. This two-seater was completely blown up in the sky on the South of Pancevo. Another German “Tornado” was downed on March 29, but the pilot managed to eject himself. According to Yugoslav and Russian sources, one British “Harrier” was down on March 30, and another one on April 17. A large group of multi-purpose fighter aircraft found themselves in the cross fire of the light anti-aircraft artillery and had to leave the Yugoslav sky with lots of damage. On April 15, agencies reported about the sad end of so-called “Warthog”, American specialized fighter aircraft for anti-tank fighting A-10A. The greatest success of the Yugoslav Army is definitely, demystification of the carefully kept secret of the “Stealth” technology. The invisible fighter F-117A was shot down into the plough-lands of the village of Budjanovci, hit by the earth-to-air missile. Soon after that, Radio Zagreb reported the forced landing of another Stealth aircraft at the Zagreb airport. According to Reuters, and some other media houses, there is a real possibility that even a third “invisible” aircraft faced a similar sad destiny. On April 6, an aircraft
which bombarded the oil refinery in Novi Sad that night, was shot down above Fruska Gora mountain early in the morning. NATO did not have better luck in its helicopter missions, in which a large number of commandos lost their lives. One HH60-G helicopter with two pilots and 12 commandos came down between Bijeljina and Tuzla on March 28, and only a day later, the same destiny hit another two helicopters of similar type. According to Russian
sources, a NATO aircraft and two CH-53/53E helicopters were shot down at
about 200 kilometers to the South-West from Belgrade, on April 2, with 58
CREW members, who are all believed to have died in the accident. The
Yugoslav air defence shot down a considerable number of aircraft, not
identified yet, so that the list of the dead aggressor’s soldiers is not
final yet. In any case, it is becoming bigger and bigger every day in this
aggression on Yugoslavia. Therefore, it no wonder there is a panicky fear
of NATO from facing the families of the dead soldiers and ridiculous
attempts to hide the truth.’

Thanks, i see your point but i wonder is there any evidence of what Russia or Gordon Claims in any Serbian document, news paper or video?
I mean officially, no insult but only your words for accurate evidence is hardly a Historical proof.

But i agree i also do not have evidence to sustain Udarnaja Sila`s or Gordon statements beyond telling what you what they do claim, but i do believe you might have some evidence that perhaps in one way is conclusive, have you?

Why don’t you contact some of the e-mails listed? Ask them if ‘Gvozden Djukic’ was a MiG-29 pilot from 127LAE and who received a medal from Milosevic? Ask them if Col Dani Zoltan received the award for shooting down F-117 82-806?

MINISTER– Bircaninova 5, 11020 Belgrade
• [email]ministar.odbrane@mod.gov.yu[/email]

DEPUTY MINISTER– Bircaninova 5, 11020 Belgrade
• [email]zamenik.ministra@mod.gov.yu[/email]

CABINET
• [email]kabinetMO@mod.gov.yu[/email]

PUBLIC RELATIONS DEPARTMENT– Bircaninova 5, 11020 Belgrade
• PRESS RELEASE SERVICE
• Tel:
+ 381 11 32 03 015
• Fax: + 381 11 32 03 466
• e-mail [email]info@mod.gov.yu[/email]

• OFFICIAL WEB SITE:
• Tel:
+ 381 11 32 03 016
• Fax: + 381 11 32 03 466
• E-mail [email]webmaster@mod.gov.yu[/email]

http://www.mod.gov.yu/000english/08kontakti/08-index-e.htm

No you are very wrong, i do give credibility to all sources, the Russian TV is as credible as here some forum members or NATO official reports.

The best and most reliable of them all is the Serbian Defence Ministry, the Serbian arm forces and the Serbian Air Force, If offically the Serbian Air Force says there was not F-117 shot down by a Serbian MiG-29 well, mister Yefim Gordon or Udarnaja Sila are totally proven wrong.

But believe a western source for what officially says the Serbian Air Force without any Serbian official statement is totally wrong, honestly i won`t believe such source.

IMHO the MiG-29`s kill of an F-117 is likely, not a fact yet, however it is not unlikely, it is just probable.

up to what i know many Russian sources say it was a fact, it was true a MiG-29 Shot down a F-117 even a Russian TV program with MAPO`s collaboration and Valery Menitsky`s statements says that.

According to Yefim Gordon, Milosevic awarded a medal to a MiG-29 pilot, i do not believe that crap of the changed name, but he says the MiG-29 pilot was awarded and therefore therefore must be an evidence of such event and i doubt there was not the mention of the MiG-29 shooting of the F-117 while awarding the Pilot for such feat

In few words either Milosevic awarded a MiG-29 pilot a medal for shooting down a F-117 or simply he did not.

Flogger it was Col Dani Zoltan who received the medal from Milosevic. Why is there no record of the 127th LAE receiving a national award when the 250th Rocket Brigade received an award? Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots also received bravery awards and promotions for bravery such as Peric, Milutinovic, Arizanov, Nikolic and Illic.

In similar fashion to a Russian media claims of a MiG-29 they also got it wrong on the SAM that shot down 82-806.

“ITAR-TASS reports that Russian Defence Minister Igor Sergeyev had
stated that a Russian-made KUB system (NATO SA-6 ‘Gainful’) had been
responsible for the destruction of an American F-117 stealth fighter
over Yugoslavia. ITAR-TASS, 29 March 1999. “

[QUOTE=Lonevolk]You can believe whatever you like…I’m just pointing out questionable explanations.

The above “explanation” is a proven lie.

The F-16CG was 88-0550. The aircraft suffered engine failure after suffering combat damage from a SAM. The aircraft nearly made it back out of Serb territory. On the audio the pilot can be heard informing his wingman that his engine lube was low. Obviously he was losing the engine at this point due to the shredding damage caused by the SAM. Near to the border his engine quit completely and he informed all on frequency that he was now a glider. Shortly after he ejected from his stricken aircraft. I take it that you have never heard the audio?