TEEJ‘NDTV Correspondent
Friday, March 31, 2006 (New Delhi):
Reports say India might lodge a formal complaint with Google over its satellite images of key installations in India.
They include images of India’s top-order Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jets in position at their base in Pune.
At the click of a mouse Google produces a layout of the entire airfield – from parked aircraft to hardened shelters scattered among the trees.
Experts say the trick lies not in what you have but how you plan to use it.
“Everybody knows what the other side has .. now it will be about what’s in your head,” said Jasjit Singh, military affairs expert.
The photos on Google are sometimes just two months old. It is the age of UAV’s with high-resolution cameras that can fly overhead with almost no method of detecting them and give real time images.’
TEEJFlogger wrote:
“all societies have cover ups”
So would you care to explain to me and this thread how NATO is covering up those losses that you believe in?
A conflict that took place in Europe which the worlds press focused on 24/7. A conflict that brought scores of the world aviation enthusiasts to airfields all over Europe eager to get up and close to their beloved subjects. For your belief in the ’38’ there must have been aircraft going missing right under the noses of this huge assembly of media and gathered aviation enthusiasts.
The Yugoslavs imaged to death anything from NATO that fell onto their territory. Hence we have all those images of combat-jettisoned fuel tanks and missile debris. Everytime a fuel tank was found it came with the story that it was proof positive that the aircraft had been shot down. Foreign media in Bosnia even stumbled across the combat-jettisoned F-15C fuel tanks from the Yugoslav MiG-29 engagement on 26th March 1999. Both USAF pilots punched off their externals once committed to the two Yugoslav MiG-29s. The stories of downed F-15 wreckage being found appeared within hours on the Internet. The stories are still there today seven years on that Yugoslav MiG-29s shot down an F-15 over Bosnia. Claims made even though the surviving MiG-29 pilot, Colonel Peric, gave a photo interview in which he stated that he nor his wingman even had a chance to engage before being hit by AMRAAMs.
Flogger, explain to me and this thread how those missing manned aircraft are still being covered up? You have failed to reply as to why those missing aircraft haven’t been made known as accidents? How are they doing it Flogger. How are they covering up the missing aircraft from aviation enthusiasts and investigative journalists? How are they covering up them up from magazines such as AFM. I take it that you actually read AFM? You are aware Flogger that AFM has an ‘Attrition Secton’?
You can contact them at the following:
[email]dave.allport@keypublishing.com[/email]
Flogger do some research from 1999. Maybe you have all the AFMs to date all nicely bindered, indexed and shelved?
Explain to AFM how those missing aircraft you believe in are still missing from those mult-national air forces that took part in Allied Force. Remember that there are still those that would want to rub Clintons and Blair’s nose in it with revalations of combat losses in both manpower and equipment from that period.
Here is an example of the type of mind-set that exists in relation to ‘NATO losses’.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/natolosses-review01.htm
In the above link the 2000 Observer report is referenced as is PPRUNE ‘Military Aircrew’ thread.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/theobserver04.htm
So from the Observer press article and the PPRUNE mil thread we have the following claim:
“Two out of three British Tornadoes that are grounded comes to a rather substantial number: 124 Tornado strike aircraft are not operational. The crisis begun developing following the Operation “Desert Storm” in Iraq, but it really took off since the Operation “Allied Force” against Yugoslavia. As far as I know only four NATO Tornado aircraft were shot down during the conflict based on media reports. Two Luftwaffe strike aircraft were shot down on March 26-27. The other two Tornadoes were shot down on April 15 and May 26. It was not reported whether these aircraft were German or British.
The fact is that most of RAF’s strike aircraft are out of order for a variety of reasons. I do not have enough information to draw any definitive conclusions. However, I know enough to say that 124 strategically – important strike aircraft are not grounded for no reason. NATO sustained significant losses. An even greater number of aircraft were damaged not only by ground fire but also by the intensity of operations and skipping on the required maintenance hours. After talking to several USAF aircraft mechanics, who participated in the “Allied Force”, I can conclude that NATO aircraft were pushed to the limit and way beyond it. This is especially true for the USAF aircraft. One USAF aircraft mechanic who served at Aviano told me: “Two weeks – three weeks tops – and the “Allied Force” would have been over ’cause NATO would have ran out of working planes.”
In the February 13 article in The Observer, based on first-hand information posted by RAF pilots and technicians at an Internet discussion group and entitled Pilots Vent Fury at RAF on Web, Antony Barnet writes: “Pilots currently serving in the Gulf, and others recently back from Kosovo, are so angry about defective equipment and low morale they are flooding the secret site with complaints aimed at senior officers.” The “secret” site is the PPRuNe message board for military pilots. I’ve spent several days at that site fishing for information until that Sherlock from The Observer scared everyone away with his article.”
Flogger go onto:
‘Military Aircrew’
Take a look at the postings and do some research. You will see aircrew from several nationalities posting. You’ll see several posters from the RAF who are not fans of the present UK Labour government and in particular the Defence Minister and Tony Blair himself. Do you honestly believe that the cover-up that you believe in would have lasted 7 years without it all falling apart on a free and open debating Internet forum? Flogger, post onto there and see if you can break this ‘cover-up’ that you obviously believe in? Just imagine the cudos you would have in revealing all those combat losses covered up as accidents? Over to you!
PS. Flogger, remember to e-mail [email]dave.allport@keypublishing.com[/email] so he can update the AFM Attrition Section. Flogger, just imagine an article in AFM from yourself revealing the ‘truth’?
TEEJIts clear only 2 airplanes were shot down!
I suggest for Kobraforces to check the older threads on the subject using the search option! Cause i dont want people to think of us Serbs having illusions about scores of destroyed NATO airplanes. If anyone wants,for 10€ they can buy pieces of shot down F-117 at the musem lol :diablo:
Now i hope that our Mig-29s will get somewhat upgraded as discussed in other threads and protect the skies,without conflicts.
Djnik,
Its far too late for that! If you want to see some cringing 2006 posting on the subject of all those ‘NATO losses’ then go to this Iranian defence forum:
TEEJInteresting you chase my from threat to thread to prove what? as Golden Dragon trying to prove what? i just wrote MiG-29 i did not write is photoshop or real, neither i knew no photoshops in this thread, in fact i did not know it was photoshop any way chasing me or quoting me is a good way to see the mental impact i had on both of you hehehehehe
Flogger,
Please don’t flatter yourself. I trawl through all of the forums and threads on AFM. I am an aviation enthusiast. If you had done some simple research on the subject on AFM forums before posting you would see that the ‘PLAAF MiG-29’ is very old news. I was involved in the original thread highlighting the fact that the original image (Romanian MiG-29) was probably copied from World Air Power Journal. Did you honestly think that you had genuinely stumbled across an image of a PRC marked MiG-29? Sorry mate my turn to laugh. 😀
TEEJFew if any porbably. 2 Tornado IDS are credited to Rolands. However as the USAF prefered to operate at medium levels and the Roland being a low alltitude system this makes sense. The RAF operated at low level during the opening sorties of the conflict.
The low-level stuff during DS was also conducted by U.S. assets during the first couple of days. Even B-52s went low-level! A few years back I got into a debate on rec.aviation.military with a guy who disputed that B-52s were involved in such high risk sorties. The following are two replies from B-52 pilots on the matter:
“The B-52s that struck at low altitude during the first night of DESERT
STORM were shot at. However, almost if not all the fire came from AAA
at the airfields under attack. Most shots went high as the Iraqis
were firing blind and probably wouldn’t have expected such a large
plane to come at them at such a low altitude. As for SEAD (as well as
CAP), the standard practice was to send in strike packages without
dedicated SEAD or CAP for any particular aircraft. This allowed
maximum flexibility and responsiveness for the assets that were
available. Brooks’ argument depends on how one defines “high threat
area”. I would argue the B-52s did operate in high threat areas for
the first few nights of low level ops during DESERT STORM. If the
environment wasn’t high threat, they wouldn’t have flown low.
Additionally, I would argue that if the enemy is shooting at you, you
are in a high threat environment. At least one B-52 took shrapnel
damage from a SAM shot, too. (Although that was at high altitude and
later in the war.) So there was a high threat environment–it just
wasn’t as high a threat environment as that experienced by aircraft
like the F-117.
Another BUFF Driver”
BUFF’s flew TA (Terrain Avoidance) altitudes the first 3 nights of DS.
TA in training was 400′-600′ AGL. In combat, it depended on the pilot
team. Flying at TA altitudes at night with NVG’s is completely task
saturating. Most guys I know flew at 400′. Some dropped down a
little lower. The first night they struck 5 airfields with 15 BUFFs.
All of the airfields had AAA and SAMs, but most of the guys only got
shot at with AAA, very heavy, but unguided. By the way, NVGs are
totally useless once the AAA starts, but then the whole night sky is
lit up so well, you don’t need them anymore!. A couple of the BUFFs
at one airfield (don’t remember which one) saw some SA-2s launch, but
didn’t get hit. We didn’t have any dedicated SEAD. There was some
concern about a HARM hitting a BUFF on the way down. We were pretty
much on our own, as far as the AAA and SAMs went. Of all of the low
level sorties, I think we only had one BUFF that had damage from AAA.
They found a small round in the bomb door. I was very surprised (but
very glad) that we didn’t lose a BUFF those first 3 nights.
After night 3, I think all of the BUFF sorties were high altitude. I
flew nine combat sorties in DS and I’m happy to say they were all
pretty much milk runs, except for the low level sortie. We did go
downtown to Bagdad (and points north of Bagdad) several times. They
always sprayed AAA at us, but it was well below our altitude. Pretty
awesome sight!
The Weasel drivers were flying 7-8 hour sorties and were getting
pretty bored toward the end. They always seemed to manage to be in
the area when our bombs went off so they could view the “show”. We
always put on the best “show”, hehe.
As far as OAF, BUFFs were regularly flying (high altitude) into
low-medium SAM threats. I wasn’t in that one. I’m sure that Buffdrvr
would take great exception to Brooks’ comments about OAF, but I’ll let
him speak for himself.
–Still yet another BUFF driver.”
TEEJThis somehow doesn’t sounds like IRNA and nothing like that is to be found on their site.
Any link ?
It seems to be fake.
April Fool’s Day guys!
TEEJAnyone got pix of the “USAF VC-10” (a film mock-up) and the RAF Coastal Command Antonov (Polish, I think) that appeared at the Air Tattoo a couple of years back?
William
Images of the Polish Bryza can be found at the following link:
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?cnsearch=AJG001-03&distinct_entry=true
TEEJTEEJ
Please be realistic, can you bring all the pictures of all the 80 aircraft shot down by Israel even the serial number, all the Aircraft by the US shot down in Desert storm, all the aircraft shot down in Vietnam all the aircraft shot down by England in WWII, both NATO and Serbia have claims it is foolish to think they are telling the true or they do not hide losses.
So you are avoiding the specific questions I posed?
Explain to me how the ’38’ NATO aircraft you believe are missing from the inventory of multi-nations are being covered up as accidents? Remember you stated that NATO admitted to most of these as accidents. Please clarify all those aircraft admitted as accident lost airframes? How are those non-declared aircraft accidents being covered up from the aviation media seven years since the conflict?
TEEJMiG-29
Here is ’54’ in its correct insignia:
TEEJMiG-29
Flogger, still firmly in (April Fool) fantasy land I see!
The image you posted is photo shopped. The original image correctly shows a Romanian MiG-29.
TEEJUndoutedly the main question is NATO reports must be also fabricated, how it is possible that Serbia with SA-3 1960s technologies defeated the so called Stealth bomber with a tiny force of 16 MiG-29s and SA-3s they showed to the entire world the the F-117 Stealth unvulnerability and high price tag are not as powerful, and remember that Serbia was outnumbered, outgunned and still they shot down the F-117, Serbia officially claimed another 38 aircraft many of which NATO says were lost in accidents.
Iraq in 1991 was also out gunned and still managed to destroy in the air almost the same number of aircraft NATO destroyed; 38 NATO aircraft lost in combat against 44 iraqi aircraft lost in air to air combat this is according Western acknowledged numbers.
This shows very clearly that neither NATO, Serbia or Iraq never said numbers according to the truth.
The main reason the Western powers acknowledges losses are mostly when the rivals either parade their pilots or show F-117 wreckages.
Serbia and Iraq also inflated their numbers a lot too specially in the begining of their respective wars they fought
Flogger,
Again you again emerge from your fantasy world. Even after the downing of 82-806 the F-117s continued to fly combat missions deep inside Serbia. Obviously according to the world of Kobra they were immediately withdrawn from use and never saw combat again! And there you go yet again with the claims of MiG-29 involvement in F-117 claimed kills. As SOC has highlighted to you even Yefim Gordon has stopped referencing it.
So you believe that Serbia claimed 38 NATO aircraft shot down? Are you claiming that all those were manned aircraft? You claim that ‘many of which NATO says were lost in accidents’
Flogger would you like to provide me with a list of those ‘many’ aircraft that NATO says were lost in accidents?
You have still failed to provide me, and this thread, with a coherent explanation as to how these losses are being covered up? I supplied you with the F-117 Allied Force serial list and you still believe that F-117s are missing in combat over Yugoslavia. You fail to understand the complexities of such an on-going cover-up existing 7 years after this conflict. Why, if those ’38’ are missing, then where are the corresponding accidents to hide those combat losses? You have failed to provide this thread with any explanation. On the purely political front we had Clinton and Blair. Do you honestly believe that any US or UK combat losses during Allied Force would still be hidden 7 years after? Obviously you do, but you have still to provide details of those missing aircraft from the multi-national inventories. Flogger how are they doing it? You just believe, but are providing not a scrap of evidence to support your theory.
The Yugoslav Aeronautical Museum staff have accumulated approximately 1500 pieces of everything under the sun. Apart from the two manned aircraft
losses (F-117A 82-806, and F-16CG 88-0550 and the remains of the starboard engine nacelle from A-10A 81-0967) even they have failed to produce anything
other than UAVs, fuel tanks and remains of missile debris. The “recovery teams” from the museums interviewed by UK aviation magazines revealed that some of their searches were conducted during air-raid alerts to try and recover interesting exhibits for the museum. Flogger examine the claims from Yugoslavia at this time. Count up how many of those claims were of aircraft coming down inside Serbian territory itself. All those claims and still not one piece of evidence of an unaccounted for NATO manned aircraft.
So again I’ll bring you back to those aircraft that you believe are missing from the NATO inventories. You obviously believe that those manned aircraft losses have been covered up by accidents. Can you explain how those missing aircraft are still not being claimed as lost in accidents? Can you explain how those missing aircraft that you believe in are being hidden from investigative journalists and aviation enthusiasts? Seven years now and not one maintenance Chief, aircrew or even grieving family has come forward to inform the world. Clinton is on record as stating he was relieved that there was no combat deaths from NATO forces during Allied Force. If you believe the ’38’ they you must also believe that NATO aircrew died in combat during Allied Force. Seven years later where are the grieving families demanding to know where their loves ones are? If you believe that their deaths are being covered up in training accidents then where are the corresponding accident announcements and details? Over to you Flogger.
TEEJyeah but at least we shot down a f-117a STEALTH aircraft and that plane is suppose to be superiour then a SA-3 and that plane was shot down and thats why from 1999 that plane has not seen combat. Also the b-2 is possible to shoot down u just need to buy a copuple of TAMARA anti stealth radars and then you can shot down the plane.
Kobra,
Switch on will you? F-117s conducted strikes on Iraq during 2003. They opened the campaign with a strike on March 20, 2003.
TEEJwell i heard that the Germans and the british or some other counrty admitted that they lost a few Tornadoes. Maybe its parts of that.
Kobra,
Of course they did. Kobra mate you are bringing nothing to the discussion other than pure waffle. Maybe you also heard about the German F-4 Phantom losses too? Here is positive proof for you:
” Serbs claim to have shot down 2-4 German F-4s. Russian Ministry of Defense sources confirmed that at least two German F-4 fighter were lost. A crew of one of the lost F-4s was killed in the crash. The crew of the other lost aircraft ejected and is believed to have been captured by the Serbs. It has been pointed out to me that F-4s may not be even participating in this
conflict. I still believe, although I may be wrong, that they are being used
(or at least have been used early in the campaign) by Germany and, possibly,
by Italy (Italian government insists that no Italian planes are being used
in the aggression against Yugoslavia: Italian pilots fly aircraft of other
NATO members, although it is more likely that Italian pilots fly German
Tornadoes. According to Italian government, Italian pilots do not
participate directly in the attacks on Yugoslavia, only provide air cover
for other NATO aircraft.)”
The above was from an early Venik contribution to the world wide web.
http://www.warinfo.org.yu/natodown.html
Kobra here is proof positive that an RAF Tornado was shot down over Serbia:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/fueltank02.htm
Mmmm or maybe its just a combat-jettisoned fuel tank. Over to you mate? What else did you hear?
TEEJhi i have found a A-10a shot down during the NATO capmpaingn in 1999. This plane was maybe shot down by a MIG 29 or a SAM but i also have the pictures to prove it.
SerbMiG,
You need to try harder than that! Ask yourself why the media and the military could only show the remains of an engine nacelle? Why no other wreckage of this A-10? If you want to see this A-10 starboard engine nacelle then visit the Kalemegdan museum. This image is of 81-0967 taken in 2005 during a Red Flag exercise.
TEEJCan anybody read the Serial No.? Do it see it correctly *Triangle sign 40662?* If it should be for an A-10A. then the serial number would have been coupled with other year than 1974, because 74-0662 was an F-4E, now stored at AMARC. See http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5688362
OTOH, 1994 is out of question. Therefore 84-0662? Serial numbers for all A-10As produced are following:
73-1664 to 73-1669 (73-1670 to 73-1673 canceled)
75-0258 to 75-0309
76-0512 to 76-0554
77-0177 to 77-0276
78-0582 to 78-0725
79-0082 to 78-0225 (79-0226 to 79-0243 canceled)
80-0140 to 80-0283
81-0939 to 81-0998
82-0646 to 82-0665 (82-0692 to 82-0705 canceled)I think this is a proof enough to show that what we see here is NO WAY an A-10A. And especially the *Part No.* on the sign shows that the shield comes from a specific part and not from the whole aircraft. My idea would be a drop tank, while the first pic very much reminds me of an A-10A dropping a flare..
Does anybody disagree? Feel free to present your own investigative ideas.
Flex,
That is the construction numbers. 662 is the construction number for A-10 serial 81-0967. A-10 serial 81-0967 lost its starboard engine nacelle to SAM damage on the 2nd May 1999 over Kosovo. It landed safely in Macedonia, was repared and returned to its base in Italy. The Serbs filmed the engine nacelle and claimed a complete A-10 shot down. The remains of the engine nacelle is now in a Yugoslav museum. 81-0967 is still in the inventory.
81-0967 received a Purple Star (painted on the airframe) after it was repaired in Macedonia.
Images taken after 81-0967 had been repaired.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/a10a-81-0967repaired01.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/a10a-81-0967repaired03.jpg
This is the photograph taken at the exhibition at Kelemegdan showing the remains of the engine nacelle wired together for display.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/museum/photos/images/mu-surcin-a10-02_jpg.jpg
Images of 81-0967 after it had landed with combat damage in Macedonia on the 2nd May 1999. Obviously it had left its starboard engine nacelle back in Kosovo!
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