TEEJGrM wrote
If anyone can contribute to this list , please do so , but please just confirmed kill/combat damage ( please no propaganda , please no copy and paste from Venik and similar sources)
1 x MH-53 damaged by small arms fire
2 x MH-60 damaged by small arms fire
The above helos were damaged by small arms during the rescue of the F-117 Pilot. (F-117A, serial 82-806)
The following helo was damaged during the rescue of the F-16 Pilot (F-16CG, serial 88-0550 shot down 2nd May 1999)
1 x MH-60 damaged by small arms fire
Lt. Col. Stephan J. Laushine who led both rescue missions into Yugoslavia revealed the details in a TV interview shortly after the conflict. Two took hits to the rotors and another took a hit in the aft cabin section.
The MH-60 that was damaged on the F-16 Pilot rescue was revealed in a 16th Special Operations Wing Public Affairs quote
‘The MH-60G dispatched to pick up the downed pilot sustained significant damage from small arms fire’
These details were published at the time by myself on AFM when they were revealed in public. Unfortunately with the passage of time many of the source links are now dead.
On the A-10s damaged.
One was serial 81-0967. It was hit and shedded part of the starboard engine nacelle over Kosovo. The engine nacelle is on display at the Kalemegdan fortress museum, Belgrade.
Images of 81-0967 in Macedonia still armed after landing in Macedonia minus its engine nacelle. It was repaired in Macedonia and flown back to Italy.
Apologies, but some of the Venik links are dead now that he has taken his website down. I supplied him with some images of A-10 damage and repair at the time.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=892223&postcount=327
One A-10, serial 81-0988 (Not 81-0984 as misquoted by Venik) took combat damage over Kosovo on the 11th May 1999. The hit ripped off an antenna from the underside of the fuselage. The pilot was Captain Chris Short, who was the son of Gen Michael Short.
Gen Short gave a disclosure to a US Senate committee and stated the following:
“My son called, and said immediately, “Don’t tell Mom.” My response was, “Don’t tell Mom what?” And he said, “I got hit tonight.” My question was, “Where were you?” I expected him to say he was down at 3,000 feet, that there was a tank he just had to get. Then when he said, “I was at 18,000 feet,” I breathed a great sigh of relief, one, because he was okay, and two, because he was following the rules.”
This is the details that I suppled to Venik from the RAF Yearbook on events surrounding damage to A-10 serial 81-0988.
May 11 On May 11, 1999, an OA-10A serial number 81-0984 piloted by Capt. Chris Short landed at the Gioia del Colle airbase in Italy with damage to the underside of the aircraft. The damage is believed to have been caused by a nearby explosion of an SA-13 SAM. RAF yearbook (p. 46) details Capt. Short’s encounter with the SAM:
‘Amongst the many encounters by the 81st FS was one on 11 May, when a pair of OA-10s were performing an airborne FAC mission over eastern Kosovo. Pilots Capt. Chris Short, and his wingman Col. Greg Sanders, entered their designated box area from the south and were notified by an E-3 to search for a possible Serbian helicopter. After 15 minutes of fruitless search, they discovered a possible tank revetment south of Pristina airfield. A Maverick missile was fired at the site, although it was not possible to determine if the tank had been successfully hit. The pilots radioed the position of the tank revetment to another FAC team, and departed the area. The A-10s then flew to another location, where earlier in the day two camouflaged APCs had been reported. Two vehicles were detected, but due to low fuel reserves, the pilots were only able to perform two attacks. Capt. Short rolled his A-10 towards the vehicle and fired a Maverick, scoring a direct hit. The second aircraft aimed for the other vehicle, and also fired a Maverick which missed its target. The two aircraft then climbed to altitude to return to the tanker before continuing their patrol. While in the climb, Capt. Short experienced a ‘thump’ on the underside of the fuselage behind the seat. As a defensive measure both aircraft ejected self protection flares. Neither Col. Sanders or Capt. Short could find any damage to their aircraft, so the two pilots resumed their flight after refuelling from the tanker. The two aircraft completed their mission, which included delivering Mk82 bombs onto a Serb target in Kosovo. The aircraft then returned to Gioia del Colle. It was only after taxing into the de-arming area that personnel noticed damaged to the underside of the A-10. The FM antenna had been torn away, and there was a large dent on the underside and a black scorch mark. A SAM is believed to have exploded nearby, with Capt. Short having a lucky escape’
The following is a link to the damage of A-10 on 11 May 1999 as flown by Captain Chris Short.
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/78013_82512329_A-10_81-0984_11.May1999..jpg
The following is of A-10 serial 81-0967 after repair in Macedonia.
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/78013_618669629_A-10_FT967_Skoplje5.jpg
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/78013_618669629_A-10_FT967_Skoplje6.jpg
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/78013_618669629_A-10_FT967_Skoplje7.jpg
TJ
TEEJFact is that censorship did happend for reasons i have no problems understanding.
Now, reading what you write, you obviously take it personally if a B-2 got hit over Yugoslavia. It is like you spent the whole time since the cold war in the trenches. You need to start taking happy pills. Get a grip. It is only a aeroplane, not the end of the world.
Never try to pull me down to your level again.
Stop wriggling and get down the library. Yet again it is you that is bringing this ‘B-2/F-117’ wreck/damage as ‘fact’ purely because as you stated it appeared as headline news in Norway.
I expect that what you will find in the archives is one of the mis-represented images from that period as already discussed before? Some media ran the following story. The wreckage was presented as an F-117 shot down in Bosnia. In fact it was a wreck of one of the two Yugoslav MiG-29s shot down on the 26th March 1999.
TJ
TEEJ😡
If you care to study what i wrote in previous postings. ONLINE VERSIONS OF THE ARTICLES WERE REMOVED ! YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE PAPER VERSIONS,. THOSE YOU CAN ONLY FIND BY GOING TO THE LIBRARY AND LOOK AT THE MICROFILMS ! 😡
Well the onus is on you to bring this evidence to the forum. Get yourself down the library and you can bust this ‘NATO conspiracy’. It is that easy! You’ll be telling us in the future that the ‘Evil Nato’ has removed the microfilms containing the images?
TJ
TEEJOn the study of idiots, it is hardly ever noted that they are able to act together in a coordinated manner. Infact most studies suggest the opposite as one of their defining aspects. Now the key issue here is that the Norwegian press removed all reference to to the story overnight.
Norwegian constitution gives the Government the opportunity to censor the press. However, everytime it has been applied, the press will ask and write questions about it. As usual this happened after the war in Kosovo. The governmet confrmed ths, but as usual they gave no spesific details as to what was censored. This is therefore a public matter, not a conspiracy as you suggest.
TEEJ,
You have tried to ridicule me by linking me to guys named Vlanek, Blanek and conspiracy theories.
It is clear that you are not interested in a debate on the topic, but try as hard as you can to derail it by agitation.
I therefore refer you to the moderators, if you choose to continue.
You are not bringing anything to the discussion other than a conspiracy theory created by yourself. This major breaking news story that only you saw and that nobody else copied or recorded? Since 1999 on this forum there have been several posters over the years that have brought similar stories. Claims of ‘I saw the video tape of the wreckage on TV’, etc.
You are the one quoting ‘facts’. Facts that you believe were all covered up overnight in some sweeping conspiracy while you slept. Again this is nothing new. This tactic has been used by NATO losses believers ever since the conflict. They immediately drag out the old NATO covered everything up agenda. Bring some facts instead of a fantasy tale of conspiracy!
TJ
TEEJTEEJ, you here play underhanded with me. You here try to put my observations together with those that are mad and/or are promoting a nationalistic agenda.
I resent that.
What i am saying is that in my opinion, a F117, or more likely a B-2 got hit and had to divert to Greece (leaky hydraulics maybe ?) It was repaired during the night and flew back to USA. Since this happened some nights prior to the shoot down of the F117, a media censorship was made to win the “media war”
After all this was early in the conflict and the damaging of a stealth asset must have been viewed as a media deafeat.
I put it to you that all the Norwegian media did was to present one of the goof ball images that other media had mis-represented and been caught out by. They simply ditched the story in order not to look like idiots. You are the one stating that they published these images, yet nobody managed to copy them?
It is clear that you are partial to a conspiracy story. Remember other media were caught out badly by running with stories and images that proved to be bogus or misrepresented. What you are saying is that no other aviation enthusiasts in Norway noted and made copies of these unique images presented? I find that very hard to believe, but if you like to live in a world of conspiracy then that is your choice.
TJ
TEEJYou here ignore the fact that a f-117/B-2, made a emergency landing in Greece.
During 1999 the ‘Yugoslav Freedom Fighters’ made claims of a damaged F-117 landing at Nis. Radio Zagreb also ran the April Fool story of a damaged F-117 landing at Sarajevo. All these were presented as ‘fact’. You see how ‘facts’ get distorted and blown out of proportion?
Mrs Visic, The Deputy Secretary of Information, presented this information as ‘fact’ during 1999.
Radmila Visic, claimed that Yugoslavia has shot down more than 190 NATO aircrafts since March 24, when the Alliance launched air raids against the country, in her interview at the Macedonian Press Agency. Mrs Visic accused NATO of concealing the actual number of its losses during the two-month war in Yugoslavia and reassured that when the hostilities are over, the Alliance will be forced to inform first of all the mothers of the dead pilots, who still don’t know the truth. “Of course Americans and the rest of the NATO allies do not admit that they lost 190 aircrafts and they will not admit it in any of their briefings.
However, even in the Internet, in NATO’s web-site there are data that confirm this number and verify the claims of the Yugoslav army”, said Mrs. Visic. “I am certain that when this is all over, then the international public opinion and especially the American one will face the Vietnam syndrome and then the mothers of the pilots of the shot down planes will be informed that their sons where killed in the raids against Yugoslavia”, she stressed. When asked about why the Yugoslav authorities do not present photos or videos that confirm their allegations of having downed 190 planes, the Serb minister noted that even NATO itself has admitted that Yugoslavia has a remarkable strategy. “It is part of our tactics, not to show them. I, like a good soldier, will not give more information on this….”
TJ
TEEJYou here ignore the fact that a f-117/B-2, made a emergency landing in Greece.
This was a strange story for me. One day, all Norwegian media posted grainy night photos of a US bomber, damaged over Kosovo. I remember looking forward to reading the news about this the following morning, but guess what !
During the night, the story had simply died. No one refuted it, it was somply removed from all online media, papers had no follow-up, it was not commented on TV.Now, i know that Norwegian media are free, one exemption is nationaly sensitive issues, or sensitive issues of an ally in times of war. By the crude way that this was done, i know for a fact that something got hit, my guess a B-2, since the story was big enough for USA to hit the panic button.
All the US is saing is that all B-2, are accounted for, they allso say that a number of aircraft had battle damage repair after Kosovo.
I believe they speak the truth.
You are also forgetting that media were fooled by images that were appearing at the time. A French paper ran a story with images of a US plane shot down inside Bosnia. The images were of one of the Yugoslav MiG-29s shot down over Bosnia on 26th March 1999. Italian newspapers ran pictures reporting to show it being shot down with the Pilot ejecting. The images were actually of a MiG-29 that crashed in the UK during an airshow.
Back in 1999 there was a chap posting images photoshopped images of a B-2 wreck discovered in Albania. Also remember the image of an F-15 venting fuel over Bosnia? The venting fuel F-15 made it into the media as a NATO aircraft on fire and trailing smoke. You see how your ‘fact’ of a B-2/F-117 with images gets distorted? Many media outlets got caught out and ridiculed for it.
The images you claim were simply removed from all media, yet once published nobody thought to make a copy of this ‘smoking gun’ image? Consider that the Norwegian media realised that the images and story were bogus and quickly dropped it? I expect that it was one of the images doing the rounds at the time that some media misinterpreted?
You are not the first to make such claims on AFM forums since 1999. I’ve seen it all on here!
TJ
TEEJhttp://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/6419/
😀 Looks like NATO has lost half of their fleet over Bosnia 🙂 Wonder where they have concealed all those wreckages 🙂
Welcome to 1999 and the world of Venik and Djordje Pavicevic of the so-called ‘Freedom Fighters’ organisation! After the conflict Bojan Bugarcic, an advisor to Milosevic, gave an interview on the subject.
“He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. “Using the state broadcaster, unofficial ‘Russian intelligence’ web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled.
My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting ‘pure lies,’ his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. “He was devastated when he learned the truth.”
TJ
TEEJNowhere does Wheeler say that the aircraft was written-off. He merely says that “second one was damaged to the point that it could not be repaired in order to fly combat missions again”. That could mean it was not repaired to the point it has flown any combat missions over Serbia but still could have been repaired to serve at later date.
Correct, but you know how those who believe in hidden NATO losses will attempt to twist it into a complete second loss, and imply that there are more hidden. As you can see from GrMs question.
so that is combat loss as well. Is there more to be disclosed in the future?
TJ
TEEJGrM,
Winslow T. Wheeler has a gripe against stealth and the F-35 in particular.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24538.html
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=96724
The same F-117 written off example has been used by others analysts/reporters during their anti F-35 agenda. The fact that every F-117 deployed during Allied Force has been seen operational,less 82-806, puts payed to the claim that one was written off and never flew again.
Aircraft were hit and damaged during Allied Force. Damaged does NOT mean a combat loss. That is what battle damage repair is for.
From 1999 during a NATO press conference.
‘Q: You mentioned several aircraft had been hit during this operation. Do you have a rough number of times this has occurred?
Major General Wald: I think it’s probably been about five to ten or something like that. I’m not sure. Don’t quote me on that, because there may
have been some that took a little nick… (Laughter) Okay, quote me on this. About five to ten. How’s that? Less than ten, more than five.
Q: And two have been downed. Two were down or…
Major General Wald: Two have crashed. The F-16 and the F-117. The F-117 we already told you we’re not going to talk about why. The F-16 was an engine problem. We’re not sure if it was because of AAA or a SAM ingesting into the engine, or it was just an engine failure.’
As you can see aircraft were hit. That does NOT make them a combat loss and that they are not put back into service. Look at the reports from the US General Accounting Office for Desert Storm.
Operation Desert Storm – Evaluation of the Air Campaign.
Note list titled
Table II.7: Type of Coalition Aircraft Lost or Damaged and Attributed Cause.
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/ns97134.pdf
See following produced by GAO that highlights losses during Allied Force.
Comprehensive Strategy Needed for Suppressing Enemy Air Defenses
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0128.pdf
You are still under the impression that NATO aircraft were lost and their losses covered up. Explain how you keep losses hidden from the likes of the US GAO?
They didn’t do it during Desert Storm, Iraq 2003, or Afghanistan so what makes Allied Force any different? Such losses have to be accountable the same as UK losses would be accountable to the UK National Audit Office. So what we have is F-117A, serial 82-806, and F-16CG, serial 88-0550, shot down. Other aircraft took combat damage but were not written off, crashed or aircrew having to eject as a direct result of damage – the same as numerous aircraft during Desert Storm.
TJ
TEEJWell theoretically you’d only have to do it once, assuming an extra airframe or three rolled off the line at some point preserved for that or other nefarious purposes. That there’s currently a “Spirit of Missouri” flying around doesn’t necessarily mean that one was never shot down.
Not that I’m lending this conspiracy theory any particular credence…
Where have I seen those type of claims before? There is no point posting it if you don’t believe it yourself? Secret production lines all hidden from Congress not to mention the CIS inspectors involved in START/SORT? You can see how silly claims such as these can quickly get out of hand and off into the world of conspiracy? 🙂
TJ
TEEJAgain ,this tread is not about B-2 , it is about F-117 that was , allegedly damaged beyond repair during war.
Any more cases like this?
But you can’t ignore the fact that this claim about the B-2 is coming from a high ranker serving in the 250th! The same person who is claiming the F-117 damaged! He is even claiming that the wreck site was closed off and all evidence removed of Spirit of Missouri. Not to mention the claims of an audio recording of the stricken aircraft! It shows the mindset that surrounds these types of claims and how conspiracy theories evolve and develop.
TJ
TEEJGrM wrote
was damaged beyond repair …so that is combat loss as well.
But that is not the case. If it was written off then it would still be missing from the inventory – struck off charge – withdrawn from the inventory.
Every F-117 that took part, less 82-806, noted active post conflict.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=886914&postcount=252
http://www.f-117a.com/Yugo.html
Is there more to be disclosed in the future?
All those missing aircraft and personnel. All those changes of Governments in NATO countries since 1999 and still nobody is coming forward? All those missing aircraft and still aviation enthusiasts and aviation media haven’t noticed?
Venik revisted the losses – still nothing. Those claimed losses happened under Clinton and Blair and still nobody is talking? The claimed hidden losses wouldn’t have lasted five minutes let alone this period of time.
http://www.truthinmedia.org/Bulletins2000/tim2000-5-1.html
TJ
TEEJBasic research by Lt Col Anicic would have found photographic evidence of every B-2 post conflict. Especially Spirit of Missouri. It must be hard for those maintainers constantly repainting B-2s with different serials and names in order to keep the shot down airframe a secret? Oh the conspiracy! :rolleyes:
http://www.ozatwar.com/usaaf/13threactivated.htm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mulesafpilot/3990613211/in/photostream/
A Wiki entry for Spirit of Missouri. Sure sign that it is a huge conspiracy!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:B-2_Spirit_returns_to_WHITEMAN_AIR_FORCE_BASE.jpg
They even have to make sure the Spirit of Missouri is noted displaying at airshows in order to keep the ruse going? 🙂
http://jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?regsearch=88-0329
TJ
TEEJThe following is an example of how claims like this can get out of hand.
Now we have Lt. Col Djordje Anicic claiming that B-2 Spirit of Missouri is missing!
Part of the Interview with Djordje Anicic, deputy comander of third division of 250 rocket brigade of Yugoslav Army, translated in English, TV Kosava ,Serbia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qi1z4vh79A
Remember that in the case of the B-2 during this time frame that as a strategic nuclear capable heavy bomber it was covered by START treaty. Maybe Lt Col Anicic can inform US Congress that the USAF have struck off Spirit of Missouri. Perhaps he can inform the Russians that Missouri can now be struck off the verification list along with Spirit of Kansas? 🙂
All F-117 airframes used during Allied Force, bar shot down 82-806, were accounted for and noted flying post conflict. All B-2s, now minus Spirit of Kansas which crashed in 2008 on camera, can be accounted for.
TJ
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