I cannot tell you why but I would say that it was a complex combination of many factors and not linked directly to the number of guns per capita. Or are you suggesting that if the number of guns in the UK were doubled that gun-crime would actually fall?

No.

Obviously that would be a thick suggestion.

What it does show is that high firearm ownership in a nation is not the reason why high gun crime happens.

Which is why some of the posters suggestions here of draconianly strict gun controls or outright bans is a simplistic kneejerk approach.

The hard figures show that strict gun control does not lead to less gun crime.

I would be most interested to see Britains gun crime figures vs gun ownership figures over the years.

And by that, I’m talking about figures per decade, stretching back to say the 1920’s or 1930’s.

Like I said, and what the figures in my post also seem to suggest, is that it is not gun ownership that is the problem. Chile is a good example here.
But rather the way in which a society operates.

Interesting comment about the General Cagiano’s successor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Msimang

Trained in USSR,
Combat in Angola in 1986 but spent 89-91 in flying training in USSR so I assume his combat experience in ground based.
Flew helicopters
Worked on A109 acquisition program
Commanded Helicopter Flying School

The really interesting thing is rapidity of his promotions:

2005 – Promoted to Colonel (Officer Commanding Air Force Base Bloemspruit )
June 2007 – Promoted to Brigadier General (Director Helicopter Systems )
November 2010 – Promoted to Major General (Chief Director Air Policy and Plans)
October 2012 – Promoted to Lieutenant General (Chief of Air Force)

Either he is really good at his jobs or his promotions were expedited.

Definitely expedited.

Examples such as these are found across the board, not only in the armed forces.

This is also directly related to the points made by various journalists and officers, Genl Gagiano’s included, about the loss of capable and highly qualified and experienced staff due to “lack of career prospects” and “lack of career path definitions”.

There would have been highly qualified officers, many with combat experience, or running squadrons in a combat theatre, with proper relevant education and experience, that were overlooked purely based on their colour.

Genl Msimang was basically a guerrilla before going to Khirgizstan where he was trained as a helicopter pilot. MK guerrillas cadres did not partake in aviation activities.

He at least is a qualified pilot, I suppose.

The current Minister of Defence has absolutely no qualifications for her job, apart from having joined MK in 1984.
She has a teachers diploma from a nondescript college.

The reason I mention these things is not to court controversy, but that it is entirely relevant to the way the SAAF is currently operated and funded.

The professionals within the SAAF excel in spite of this environment.

The thing is, a modest increase, not just in line with inflation, would actually do quite a lot for operations.

South Africa can afford this, being either the 28th or 24th largest economy in the world, depending on the criteria, and having had sustained growth over the last 2 decades.
They are thus hovering just outside the top 10% largest economies, and spend well under the world average on defence.

I also see that the post I wrote on the previous, containing figures of nations with gun ownership vs gun crimes has conveniently been ignored.

Picking just one statistic out of that post, perhaps someone can give an analysis of why Chile, with twice as many guns per person than Britain, actually has 3 times less gun crime per capita.

I think that SA do need 8 A400M’s, and actually probably more IMHO.

It was slated to complement, and eventually replace the 8 C-130BZ’s for a start.

The 5 Boeing 707’s had an ELINT/Early Warning/jamming/air-to-air refuelling capability and role, and these will need to be replaced. Certainly the A400M was to fulfill the tanking role from what I can gather.

There is certainly a need for at least 8 therefor, especially when you consider that leased Il-76’s are being used to support SANDF peacekeeping missions in Africa.

South Africas order was for 8 A400M’s, with an option on another 6, before the massive cost overruns and delayed introduction of that type raised concerns and the cancellation.

Other manufacturers have leapt in, offering products, like new C-130’s.
The problem remains that they don’t fit the required performance indicators that led to the A-400M in the first place.
Even C-17’s have recently been offered, but it is extremely unlikely this will be considered due to the operational funding issues discussed in this thread.

There is talk also of Embraers C390, but once again, this will not meet the requirements.

I personally think the A400M will be chosen, as there is no real other competitor out there, apart from the An-70, or the new Japanese Kawasaki C-2.

As for Boeing 757’s, I suspect that South Africa will want to try and limit the amount of types in service, and thus would want a dual role airframe ala A400M.
You can see the same thing with the Casa 212/235/Turbo-Dakota transport/maritime patrol programme, looking at a single airframe. Whether that works out, we’ll see.

In context of the thread, the chief problem really is the low defence budget as a % of GDP.
They have been buying new equipment, but I really think an increase in operational funding is really needed.

Below is old, but gives an inkling I think of SA’s continued involvement in the A400M, which actually increased after the cancellation.

South Africa back in play for Airbus Military A400M after refund

04:26 19 Dec 2011
Airbus Military has cleared a key hurdle to pursuing further business with South Africa by refunding pre-delivery payments on an order of eight A400Ms cancelled two years ago.

The undisclosed refund to Armscor, the official weapons trader for South Africa’s military, allows Airbus Military to offer the A400M or other transports to its former customer.

Reacting to cost overruns and schedule delays, South Africa cancelled the order in November 2009 after joining the programme as a full industrial partner four years earlier. At the time, South Africa intended to claim a R2.9 billion ($379 million) refund, but negotiations dragged on for two years.

Meanwhile, other competitors emerged to fill South Africa’s requirement for a new tactical airlifter. Lockheed Martin has said South Africa is a prime candidate to buy the C-130XJ, a lower-cost variant of the tactical airlifter.

However, South Africa still has close links with the A400M programme. Denel Aerostructures and Aerosud are still members of the A400M supply chain, producing aircraft top shells, wing-fuselage fairings, wingtips, insulations and galleys, Airbus said. Cobham South Africa also builds the A400M satellite communications antenna in Cape Town, Airbus added.

Airbus Military is struggling to complete the A400M’s flight-test schedule. Type certification has been delayed by up to three months to the second quarter of next year because of engine problems and performance shortfalls.

The first A400M is scheduled to be delivered in March 2013 to France, according to contract requirements.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/south-africa-back-in-play-for-airbus-military-a400m-after-refund-366174/

If you wan’t to continue, take it to PM’s. Because I don’t think anybody cares. I didn’t expect you to continue your failure of a debate in the second thread on the front page.

Sphere actually won that one handily.

Please can we now carry on with the topic?

As you suggest, PM’s or another thread are the way to go for that ….

With your permission I may jump into this conversation.. The point with the TVC is not that you were wrong but that this is one of the most basic features of the T-50. If for some reason you happen not to be informed about this relatively trivial issue, then how can you expect to be taken seriously when you try to evaluate things like its RCS or how superior/inferior this aircraft must be compared to F-22?

Probably no other forum has amassed such large number of eyeball RCS experts than this one. We have heard the most comical RCS evaluations before and frankly, I am getting tired of tirades as follows:

“it has round nozzle, it can’t be stealthy. Only flat nozzles are stealthy”
“yes, F-35, too, has round nozzles, but with serrated edge, that is an entirely different story”
“I see a slot between the panels on the prototype, no way this thing can be stealthy”
“it has a tunnel between nacelles, it cannot be stealthy”
“it’s painted black, that is stealthy”
“I can see the compressor blades, not stealthy. You need S-duct for stealth”
“Yes, even YF-23 or X-32 has compressor blades at least partially visible but they are NG and NG know what they are doing”

I would suggest that we all nicely sit down and admit that besides the most obvious features than angle arrangement we have quite little idea about what is stealth and how all the tiny details play together. It would help the quality of this forum quite much.

You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Let us all try and start afresh.

My input on the problems.

Radically reduce the money personnel and equipment of the South African airforce and spend it on welfare of its people. South Africa has no enemies and there for needs only a token air force for petrol. I would have wanted the same for India (its entire armed forces and space programme in fact) had India had no external threats.

The thing is that South Africa, and therefor the SAAF, have committments in the peacekeeping role in Africa.

If anything, it needs additional funding and equipment.
The UN in particular wants SA to increase its role in peacekeeping, having criticized it for “punching below its weight”.
It currently has peacekeeping soldiers in Darfur in Sudan, and the Congo.
It also has 400 troops deployed to the Central African Republic.

The South African defence budget is 1.3% of GDP, almost half the world average of about 2,2%.

That level is about the same level as New Zealands, but with far bigger committments.

Video of the 3 Oryx helicopter deployment to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) in 2012.

Apartheid had a racial element to it, that alone makes it more despicable than anything the ANC has done since it came to power. I wish there was an invasion of South Africa during the Apartheid era and their leaders all tried in the Hague and sent to life imprisonment.

The ANC also have their own policies with racially based elements.

Educate yourself rather before showing your attention levels.

You seemed to have ignored the Australians, Indians, Israelis, British/Northern Irish and certain US states in your little temper tantrum, all of whom also had official/semi-official discriminatory practices. Their leaders can also go to the Hague in your vision of things, I imagine.

Do you have anything of substance to offer the thread on the SANDF, the SAAF in particular, instead of trolling?

What is your opinion on the thread topic, and solutions?