@ Levsha
AT the contrary, actually almost all military project and most of civilian one seems to present serious drawbacks in a sense or the other.
Probleem it was that in my own post I was not in any way talking about today: I was talking about the costant german habit to develop, for political reasons mainly, their own military planes always in collaboration with a foreign partner.
Fact is that until they were bilateral ones (Alpha jet, Transall) thing went smooth as it happened also with other of such deals around the world (Jaguar, Soko/Orao, AMX…), when things instead went multilateral or better european (Tornado, Typhoon) they went absolutely much more troubled.
Probably, as the more parties are involved the more a compromise between different requirements and worksharing became exponentially much more difficult.
Happened also with the naval Horizon program if you see, too different requirements, too different costructive standards , too different the same strategical insight and the mindset of the navies involved in the project.
So, to sum it up I just doesn’t get how the idea that I was talking about actual program going on (all IMHO at such an initial stage that we cannot get in any way a precise idea how they would end up) and not about the past examples of international collaboration has came out from nothing…

Let’s say that there are a lot of successful planes born by the collaboration of two nation, practically there is not any German notable post-WWII planes that is not born from a program with France.
Seems that problem arise when the number of nation involved rise up, the tri-national Tornado was almost troubled, the Eurofighter program an absolute mess.
Maybe Tempest i.e. a national program but utilizing contributions from foreign industries would be a safer way.
The example of the Gripen E/F i.e a swedish plane with italian avionics and an american engine is a clear indication of how it will be working just fine.

@ XB-70

Let’s add another important point:

4) There is not any rush to put it in service as a substitute for obsolescent fighters.
Su-57 would have been the substitute for Su-27, together with the Su-35S.
ATM only an handful of Cold War era Su-27 (P &S model) are still in service and still have flight hours available, Su-27 SM are from 2004 onward and are being updated to SM3 standard.
So the first ones would probably be replaced with an additional batch of Su-35, for the other they could surely wait for the izdelje-30 version as they were envisaged to from the very beginning.

@ Swerwe

Aehm, I just remember you that both radar and IRST of Gripen E are from Leonardo.
So, you can surely get the swedes aboard but they would just eat up the british share of it, without touching the Leonardo’s one at all.

In the case of the Tempest, Leonardo will have a consistent share of the whole program independently by any further italian commitment in it.
In the case Italy would decide to fully enter in the program, the share would just increase.

Let’s put it in that way: actually what we have it’s a fancy mock up and a timeline going to 2035, lot of time to finalize a project.

Fact is that , differently of what giganick1 said there is not a “british side of electronics business” in SeleX, all the intellectual property of their actual product line belong to Leonardo, so no possibility to just award contract to a local subsidiary.
And if someone has to be wary about an joint venture, that’s is Italy, that would have to accept to operate outside an european legal framework and the possibility to tap on european common defence funding, not the UK.

Perhaps Marcellego could comment on the reported Leonardo involvement?

The Italians being frozen out by the French-German combo might see a worthwhile collaboration a la Tornado?

Words are on a 27% of Leonardo quote in the project. Financial press have confirmed it-

I’m not sure that it translates much beyond UK IP at this stage. I would imagine that Italy are in the sort of mess that we could be in if there is a change of government in the UK. Can you foresee us progressing with future fighters if the Conservatives lose power in the next year?

It translate in : WE OWN SELEX ES i.e. the one that has incorporated former Ferranti and Marconi, so if you want to put a radar on Tempest without us, you have to buy it off the shelf abroad or build back an indigenous avio electronic industry from the scratch.

Crew, it seems me that you are just adding confusion (and flames) to an already tangled argument.

Let me just reply to someone in orden to clarify some point:
@ FBW I honestly don’t understand if in your post are you talking about su-57 or F-35.
Because I kinda remember that one of the goals stated in the latter development was to reduce tools when compared to legacy planes, while I am not aware of anything similar said about Su-57.
let’s say that there is a lot of difference regarding tooling and above all environmental requirements between a legacy western plane and Sov/Russian ones, actual or old.

In any case a stealth plane need specific tooling compared to a more conventional, just for keeping their own level of RCS over time.

Surely the tooling needed by F-35 will be more efficient that the logistical nightmares of the “legacy” F-117, B-2 and F-22A but they will pose a significant burden anyway.
And Russian have no legacy VLO planes, so the use of the term “finer services” made sense according to their own POW.

@ FalconDude

Isn’t the F-35 the plane the Su-57 is supposed to counter and/or match? (and the similar or better F-22)?

Well, No ,no, no and against no.
Russians have never had anything that would even getting close to the concept and the production share of the low end multirole fighters of the USAF.
Both during the Cold War than today they had a vaste array of planes, each covering a well specific mission.
So there will not be NEVER a plane like the F-35 accounting for the 80% of the total fighter line in russian service, like there were not a single counterpart of the F-16 during Cold War but several specialized models (ever more than one for a given role like in the case of Su-17/Mig-27).

@KGB

Statements

* Su-57 is to replace current T-10 platform (Su-27, 30, 35), with 35 being the last of the model

and

* Current plan is for 12 Su-57’s by 2025. That number can easily change since nothing is in writing

are contradictory one another and make not sense.
The procedure of ordering just a batch at time it’s not an oddity but a cardinal point of russian procurement system like also the one of having in store both a model making the best possible use of actual technologies (i.e. the Su-35 in the given case) and one (the PAK-FA) pushing forward to keep the pace of technological advancement.
Given that russian state control both the research bureaus, the production facility than the armed forces they have not to ensure a several decades long commitment to buy planes in the orders of hundreds or thousands pieces from the industry in order to get them to invest in the project.
They pay bureaus for prototypes, production facilities for putting on an assembly and decide the production numbers on the very run, according to the actual situation, not placing orders several years before the actual finalization of a project.

Or maybe it’s better not to have one dedicated thread for it and post the very few news about it in the general russian one.