paul1867If 25C is the base-line for ‘cold shock’ then no large body of water in the United Kingdom is ‘safe’ for swimming…
…and the sea around the coast certainly isn’t!
Well exactly you see loads of people in what we would term cold water, we’ve all done it at some time. I am not arguing one way or the other just presenting the facts that “cold shock” is an issue which should not be scoffed at but taken seriously. I don’t know how it adds up but this is what we saw being applied by the fire officer in charge. No sighting of victim and risk of cold shock led him to decide that the water should not be entered. No doubt if the victim had been visible a rescuer would have been sent in with a safety rope on the basis that fireman are fit men/women because of the training that they do. Interestingly no policeman has died by drowning (wait for the comments) but plenty have fallen through roofs and many have died from a medical condition whilst giving chase or in a stressful confrontation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty
paul1867If 25C is the base-line for ‘cold shock’ then no large body of water in the United Kingdom is ‘safe’ for swimming…
…and the sea around the coast certainly isn’t!
Well exactly you see loads of people in what we would term cold water, we’ve all done it at some time. I am not arguing one way or the other just presenting the facts that “cold shock” is an issue which should not be scoffed at but taken seriously. I don’t know how it adds up but this is what we saw being applied by the fire officer in charge. No sighting of victim and risk of cold shock led him to decide that the water should not be entered. No doubt if the victim had been visible a rescuer would have been sent in with a safety rope on the basis that fireman are fit men/women because of the training that they do. Interestingly no policeman has died by drowning (wait for the comments) but plenty have fallen through roofs and many have died from a medical condition whilst giving chase or in a stressful confrontation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty
paul1867Paul178 re your #71
COLD SHOCK
OK then. Before making derogatory comments about FACTS contained in other people’s posts I do expect the minimum courtesy of at least Googling the subject first! Seeing well-seasoned and practised swimmers taking to icy water is not really adequate proof that there is no danger. My life experience of reported events led me to believe that “cold” water was a hazard and that in respect of “cold shock” water a lot warmer than you might think.
But I wouldn’t post that without actually making sure by asking Mr.Google first and visiting sites who actually know what they are talking about. It’s called referencing.
Which is exactly what I did in post #65 which contained 2 links to reputable sites which clearly you did not feel the need to visit. But then what would ROSPA know about it.
You specifically mentioned the swimmers breaking ice at the Serpentine Lido so presumably you would accept what their web site has to say on the matter of the dangers of cold water.
In fact they have posted in direct response to the Hampstead death.
Here is the link
http://serpentineswimmingclub.com/news/247/understanding-the-risk-of-sudden-death-from-swimming-in-open-water-below-15c-or-60f
Within this page it states that water temperatures below 60F(15C) in warm weather should be considered a risk and that the first 30 seconds of immersion in open water is dangerous.
When you understand that the Approved Code of Practice for the Workplace Regulations 1992 requires a minimum temperature for offices of 61F (16C) you may start to understand what the dangers are.
To save you the trouble of hitting the link it states as follows
“UNDERSTANDING THE RISK OF SUDDEN DEATH FROM SWIMMING IN OPEN WATER BELOW 15C or 60F
Mon, 20 Apr 2015
Be careful
INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY:
Our thoughts go to the family and friends of the young 19 year old man who tragically lost his life in the waters of Hampstead Pond last week. His loss is a sad one not just for those who knew him well but also for those who swim in open water.
This piece is not about speculation as to what happened but to advise on one of the many dangers of open water swimming.
Spring is a dangerous time of year when air temperatures can greatly exceed water temperatures and sudden immersion in open water can lead to death.
This can happen when a person’s two types of skin surface heat sensors conflict with each other when the swimmer makes contact with cold water.
One theory regarding what can happen is that when a person jumps from warm air into cold water, two distinctly different things happen; first the heat sensors in the body say to the brain pump more blood and oxygen as we need to get warm. Secondly when the heat sensors in your face feel the cold water, they think you are drowning and they say slow down, save oxygen. Both these reactions happen at the same time. This can be compared with the ‘accelerator’ and the ‘brake’ in our system or ‘United’ versus ‘City’. When both systems are challenged by sudden immersion the body’s natural protection system is conflicted. This is especially relevant when waters are below 15C or (60F) and when the air temperature feels ‘warm’.
A suggested cautionary measure on entering water is to always splash your face and neck with water first, thus alerting your system about what is going to happen, and then gradually enter the water.
This is especially important if you have not been in the recent habit of getting into cold water.”
It then goes into a detailed explanation of “autonomic conflict” which is the mixed signals the body gets from “cold shock” and the “diving response”, quoting leading experts in the field.
Now I wonder if the National Center for Cold Water Safety knows anything about the subject.
You really do need to read this page it may save someone’s life not by jumping in after him but advising him it is DANGEROUS.
So what is cold water?
Well difficulties start at 77F(25C).
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/ColdIsDangerous.html
“What is Cold Water?
Cold water can kill you in less than a minute. It’s actually so dangerous that it kills a lot of people within seconds. Thousands of people have drowned after falling into cold water and alot of them died before they even had a chance to reach the surface.
That’s a scientific and medical fact that most people have trouble understanding – because they have no personal experience actually being in cold water. When they hear or think about 50F (10C) water, it doesn’t sound particularly cold – or dangerous – because they’rementally comparing it to 50F (10C) air. It’s a big mistake that gets a lot of people killed each year. This is explained in much greater detail in the section Why Cold Water is Dangerous.
You should treat any water temperature below 70F with caution.
Water Temperature Safety Guide
Below 77F (25C)
Breathing begins to be affected.
This is why the official water temperature required for Olympic swimming competition is 77-82F (25-28C).
70-60F (21-5C) Dangerous
Controlling your breathing and holding your breath becomes progressively more difficult as water temperature falls toward 60F (21C).
True or False: You don’t need thermal protection when the water temperature is above 60F (15C).
False. You should certainly be wearing a wetsuit or drysuit below 60F, however, 60F (15C) is not the temperature at which most people should start wearing thermal protection.
60-50F (15-10C) Very Dangerous/Immediately Life-threatening
Total loss of breathing control. Maximum intensity cold shock. Unable to control gasping and hyperventilation.
Fact: Cold shock is as extreme between 50-60F (10-15C) as it is at 35F (2C).
Most people who are unaccustomed to cold water will experience a maximum cold shock response somewhere between 50-60F (10-15C). For some individuals, this happens at 57F (14C), for others, the peak occurs at 52F (11C) and so on.
This means that an unprotected immersion in this temperature range will cause most people to completely lose control of their breathing – they will be gasping and hyperventilating as hard and fast as they can.
Since cold shock reaches its maximum intensity between 50-60F (10-15C), it can’t get any more intense at lower water temperatures. In other words, breathing control, once completely lost, cannot be lost to a greater degree.
Below 40F (5C) Very Dangerous/Immediately Life-threatening
Total loss of breathing control. Unable to control gasping and hyperventilation. Water feels painfully cold.
Below 40F (4.5C), water is so painfully cold that it often feels like it’s burning your skin. For many people, the notorious “ice cream headache” can be triggered simply by water touching your face. Even though cold shock is no more intense than it was between 50-60F (10-15C), the severe pain makes a desperate situation even worse because it greatly increases your psychological stress. Clear thinking becomes almost impossible.”
Now I wonder what the LFB has to say on the matter
“Brigade warns of open water danger as weather warms up
13 April 2015
12
We are warning of the hidden dangers of cooling-off in open water, as the capital’s weather warms up.
There were 669 water-related fatalities across the country in 2013, which is two-and-a-half times the number of people that died in dwelling fires that year.
In London, over the last three years, firefighters have attended 136 incidents involving people in water and carried out 92 rescues.
During the summer months crews attend on average one water related incident a week and in the last three years there have been 12 water-related fatalities.
Drowning Prevention and Water Safety Week
To mark the start of the first ever Drowning Prevention and Water Safety Week, we are highlighting the hidden risks of rivers, lakes and canals.
The focus of this year’s campaign is cold water shock, which causes a number of fatalities every year, particularly in young people aged 16 to 30, which was the age group most affected by water deaths in 2013.
Cold water shock is the body’s response to suddenly being submerged in cold water and as people enjoy the warmer weather it becomes a particular danger, as people don’t realise the air temperature is often significantly higher than that of the water.
“Open water has hidden dangers that can hurt you and at worse, kill you.”
Assistant Commissioner, Peter Cowup, said: “Rivers, lakes and canals may look inviting, especially on a hot day and after a drink, but it’s important to realise that open water has hidden dangers that can hurt you and at worse, kill you.
“People often aren’t aware of the effect cold water shock can have on their ability to swim in open water. It can not only affect a person’s breathing, but also their ability to move their muscles.
“Some moving water can look calm, but it may have strong currents below the surface which can leave even the strongest swimmers in danger.
“As the weather gets warmer, young people especially need to think about their behaviour around water and also look out for their friends. We understand the water can be great fun and we don’t want to stop people enjoying it, but it’s important to be aware of the risks.””
In summary “cold shock” is recognised as a very quick killer. You can be dead in 30 seconds, you can jump in and be dead before you resurface. That water temperatures starting as high as normal office temperature can be dangerous.
paul1867Paul178 re your #71
COLD SHOCK
OK then. Before making derogatory comments about FACTS contained in other people’s posts I do expect the minimum courtesy of at least Googling the subject first! Seeing well-seasoned and practised swimmers taking to icy water is not really adequate proof that there is no danger. My life experience of reported events led me to believe that “cold” water was a hazard and that in respect of “cold shock” water a lot warmer than you might think.
But I wouldn’t post that without actually making sure by asking Mr.Google first and visiting sites who actually know what they are talking about. It’s called referencing.
Which is exactly what I did in post #65 which contained 2 links to reputable sites which clearly you did not feel the need to visit. But then what would ROSPA know about it.
You specifically mentioned the swimmers breaking ice at the Serpentine Lido so presumably you would accept what their web site has to say on the matter of the dangers of cold water.
In fact they have posted in direct response to the Hampstead death.
Here is the link
http://serpentineswimmingclub.com/news/247/understanding-the-risk-of-sudden-death-from-swimming-in-open-water-below-15c-or-60f
Within this page it states that water temperatures below 60F(15C) in warm weather should be considered a risk and that the first 30 seconds of immersion in open water is dangerous.
When you understand that the Approved Code of Practice for the Workplace Regulations 1992 requires a minimum temperature for offices of 61F (16C) you may start to understand what the dangers are.
To save you the trouble of hitting the link it states as follows
“UNDERSTANDING THE RISK OF SUDDEN DEATH FROM SWIMMING IN OPEN WATER BELOW 15C or 60F
Mon, 20 Apr 2015
Be careful
INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY:
Our thoughts go to the family and friends of the young 19 year old man who tragically lost his life in the waters of Hampstead Pond last week. His loss is a sad one not just for those who knew him well but also for those who swim in open water.
This piece is not about speculation as to what happened but to advise on one of the many dangers of open water swimming.
Spring is a dangerous time of year when air temperatures can greatly exceed water temperatures and sudden immersion in open water can lead to death.
This can happen when a person’s two types of skin surface heat sensors conflict with each other when the swimmer makes contact with cold water.
One theory regarding what can happen is that when a person jumps from warm air into cold water, two distinctly different things happen; first the heat sensors in the body say to the brain pump more blood and oxygen as we need to get warm. Secondly when the heat sensors in your face feel the cold water, they think you are drowning and they say slow down, save oxygen. Both these reactions happen at the same time. This can be compared with the ‘accelerator’ and the ‘brake’ in our system or ‘United’ versus ‘City’. When both systems are challenged by sudden immersion the body’s natural protection system is conflicted. This is especially relevant when waters are below 15C or (60F) and when the air temperature feels ‘warm’.
A suggested cautionary measure on entering water is to always splash your face and neck with water first, thus alerting your system about what is going to happen, and then gradually enter the water.
This is especially important if you have not been in the recent habit of getting into cold water.”
It then goes into a detailed explanation of “autonomic conflict” which is the mixed signals the body gets from “cold shock” and the “diving response”, quoting leading experts in the field.
Now I wonder if the National Center for Cold Water Safety knows anything about the subject.
You really do need to read this page it may save someone’s life not by jumping in after him but advising him it is DANGEROUS.
So what is cold water?
Well difficulties start at 77F(25C).
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/ColdIsDangerous.html
“What is Cold Water?
Cold water can kill you in less than a minute. It’s actually so dangerous that it kills a lot of people within seconds. Thousands of people have drowned after falling into cold water and alot of them died before they even had a chance to reach the surface.
That’s a scientific and medical fact that most people have trouble understanding – because they have no personal experience actually being in cold water. When they hear or think about 50F (10C) water, it doesn’t sound particularly cold – or dangerous – because they’rementally comparing it to 50F (10C) air. It’s a big mistake that gets a lot of people killed each year. This is explained in much greater detail in the section Why Cold Water is Dangerous.
You should treat any water temperature below 70F with caution.
Water Temperature Safety Guide
Below 77F (25C)
Breathing begins to be affected.
This is why the official water temperature required for Olympic swimming competition is 77-82F (25-28C).
70-60F (21-5C) Dangerous
Controlling your breathing and holding your breath becomes progressively more difficult as water temperature falls toward 60F (21C).
True or False: You don’t need thermal protection when the water temperature is above 60F (15C).
False. You should certainly be wearing a wetsuit or drysuit below 60F, however, 60F (15C) is not the temperature at which most people should start wearing thermal protection.
60-50F (15-10C) Very Dangerous/Immediately Life-threatening
Total loss of breathing control. Maximum intensity cold shock. Unable to control gasping and hyperventilation.
Fact: Cold shock is as extreme between 50-60F (10-15C) as it is at 35F (2C).
Most people who are unaccustomed to cold water will experience a maximum cold shock response somewhere between 50-60F (10-15C). For some individuals, this happens at 57F (14C), for others, the peak occurs at 52F (11C) and so on.
This means that an unprotected immersion in this temperature range will cause most people to completely lose control of their breathing – they will be gasping and hyperventilating as hard and fast as they can.
Since cold shock reaches its maximum intensity between 50-60F (10-15C), it can’t get any more intense at lower water temperatures. In other words, breathing control, once completely lost, cannot be lost to a greater degree.
Below 40F (5C) Very Dangerous/Immediately Life-threatening
Total loss of breathing control. Unable to control gasping and hyperventilation. Water feels painfully cold.
Below 40F (4.5C), water is so painfully cold that it often feels like it’s burning your skin. For many people, the notorious “ice cream headache” can be triggered simply by water touching your face. Even though cold shock is no more intense than it was between 50-60F (10-15C), the severe pain makes a desperate situation even worse because it greatly increases your psychological stress. Clear thinking becomes almost impossible.”
Now I wonder what the LFB has to say on the matter
“Brigade warns of open water danger as weather warms up
13 April 2015
12
We are warning of the hidden dangers of cooling-off in open water, as the capital’s weather warms up.
There were 669 water-related fatalities across the country in 2013, which is two-and-a-half times the number of people that died in dwelling fires that year.
In London, over the last three years, firefighters have attended 136 incidents involving people in water and carried out 92 rescues.
During the summer months crews attend on average one water related incident a week and in the last three years there have been 12 water-related fatalities.
Drowning Prevention and Water Safety Week
To mark the start of the first ever Drowning Prevention and Water Safety Week, we are highlighting the hidden risks of rivers, lakes and canals.
The focus of this year’s campaign is cold water shock, which causes a number of fatalities every year, particularly in young people aged 16 to 30, which was the age group most affected by water deaths in 2013.
Cold water shock is the body’s response to suddenly being submerged in cold water and as people enjoy the warmer weather it becomes a particular danger, as people don’t realise the air temperature is often significantly higher than that of the water.
“Open water has hidden dangers that can hurt you and at worse, kill you.”
Assistant Commissioner, Peter Cowup, said: “Rivers, lakes and canals may look inviting, especially on a hot day and after a drink, but it’s important to realise that open water has hidden dangers that can hurt you and at worse, kill you.
“People often aren’t aware of the effect cold water shock can have on their ability to swim in open water. It can not only affect a person’s breathing, but also their ability to move their muscles.
“Some moving water can look calm, but it may have strong currents below the surface which can leave even the strongest swimmers in danger.
“As the weather gets warmer, young people especially need to think about their behaviour around water and also look out for their friends. We understand the water can be great fun and we don’t want to stop people enjoying it, but it’s important to be aware of the risks.””
In summary “cold shock” is recognised as a very quick killer. You can be dead in 30 seconds, you can jump in and be dead before you resurface. That water temperatures starting as high as normal office temperature can be dangerous.
paul1867Thread drift is a common occurrence in GD, the evidence is all around us, and usually occurs when a topic under discussion has run out of steam or interest or both.
Not sure the OP would agree with you there, Moggy drifted a bit early I hadn’t got to the point yet!!:D
paul1867Thread drift is a common occurrence in GD, the evidence is all around us, and usually occurs when a topic under discussion has run out of steam or interest or both.
Not sure the OP would agree with you there, Moggy drifted a bit early I hadn’t got to the point yet!!:D
paul1867Agreed heroes, all of them. A lovely aeroplane the Swordfish but the words Swordfish and suicide mission seems to go hand in hand, and, of course, they knew that.
paul1867Blenhiem Flew Today.
I just bl…..y new it!! Missed by one day.
paul186723 April four fly throughs by military helicopters plus the Chinooks further away than my lens could reach! Pity they didn’t come through but suppose they were on Warrior but then I suppose they all were hence the activity. RV8tors ran through their display, twice.
Two pairs, way beyond my lens capability
23Apr2015_0397 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0396 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0397 crop by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
AV8tors giving me an almost personal show late evening.
23Apr2015_0814crop by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_1029 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0471 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0570 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0599 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0694 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
G RIIV put on a solo display late in the day.
23Apr2015_1186c by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
Bit more progress at AAM
23Apr2015_0277 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
Trying to escape
23Apr2015_1154 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0315 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
paul1867My problem is when they call my wife and daughter sisters. Seems to please she who must be….. though.
paul1867Some pics taken yesterday.
23Apr2015_0294 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0295 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
paul1867I really don’t want to thread drift (and will start a new thread if you like, but what is the Halibag nose next to XF708. I thought that PN323 was in the IWM Lambeth.
Posted 2 more pics on Duxford diary.
paul1867Halifax section Hanger 5
23Apr2015_0292 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
23Apr2015_0301 by p_meddemmen, on Flickr
paul1867I understand the Blenheim engines were tested last evening. Have visited the last two days with the hope I would see her fly. Heard the engines at about 17:30 but mistook it for something else. Looks like I might have missed flight by just a day, again!
paul1867Operation Joint Warrior is taking place ending today and is the largest exercise in Europe.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2015/april/07/150407-joint-warrior-military-exercise-to-take-place
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