Murray BOkay, this will be difficult because everyone has been exposed to so many lies about the Arrow for so many years that most people now confuse the myth with reality.
First of all, have any of you aviation experts noticed how the Arrow just keeps on getting better with time? That aircraft is the imaginary version and the first one was a Mach 2+ machine. It was soon followed by a Mach 2.5+ version and then a Mach 3.0+ one. That was followed by, my favorite, the Mach 5.0+ machine that could fly in outer space with the amazing Iroquois bypass turbojet. Apparently that Iroquois was so good it could still breathe in the vacuum of space. [Perhaps I am being overly critical since there is no rule about imaginary aircraft following real physical laws.] The latest one is the slightly slower Mach 3.5 70,000 foot altitude version that some Canadians want to rebuild. Good luck with THAT, Eh!
So which of these imaginary aircraft are you “experts” referring to? They are all familiar to me and so is the real Mach 1.9 machine. That one is pretty boring. It was built, tested, found wanting, and cancelled for sensible reasons of economy [nearly five times the cost of a Voodoo] and performance [two-thirds the range of a Voodoo].
Now, it is common knowledge that six completed Arrows came off the production line. [If you don’t already know that then go do some homework you lazy turd.] Okay, now have you got that? SIX!
Contrary to popular myth these six aircraft were not prototypes but production models made using the Cook Craigie plan. The first five arcraft are usually referred to as Mark 1s and were fitted with P&W J75s. The sixth is referred to as a Mark 2 because it had been fitted with prototype Iroquois engines. One of those engines “threw a blade” and the aircraft’s first flight was delayed. The removable engines are the main difference between the Marks but all six of the completed Arrows were similar production aircraft.
Now for the reason that some sensible people believe an Arrow went missing. In Peter Zuuring’s, “Avro Scrapbook” on page 130 he posts an aerial photograph of five Arrows in various stages of deconstrction. The caption on one photo reads, “The fly-over photos show the cutting up process, from five Arrows on the ground to just one, RL-203.” Okay, got that, FIVE!
So six production Arrows came off the line but only five are known to have been destroyed. Some people with reasonable math skills [not libtards] think this means that one has always been missing. [A few others say two but let’s not go there.] Of course the problem with looking at the photographs is there is little to differentiate the aircraft one from the other. This means there is no easy way to know which aircraft survived.
So a missing Arrow is not something I made up nor am I the first to mention the anomaly of six being built but only five destroyed . Of course nobody had any clue about what happened to the missing Arrow until a Martin Baker ejection seat from one of them turned up recently in the U.K.
This fits very well with what is known about the Arrow. Avro Canada was always wholly British owned and a part of Hawker Siddeley. Avro Canada had many sister companies in the U.K. and since Hawker Siddeley owned them all it should have been no problem to transfer property from any one to another. It also should not have been any problem to transfer the missing Arrow to the RAF either, if they had wanted it.
The reason that finding the Arrow’s MB seat over in the U.K. is fairly good proof of an aircraft transfer is that it was a standard ejection seat made by Martin Baker in Canada. What person in their right mind would ship a used standard Canadian-made Martin Baker seat all the way across the Atlantic to the U.K. where they already had plenty of standard Martin Baker seats?
Methinks we now know where the missing Arrow went.
So why don’t those of you who don’t have clue about what you are talking about just keep quiet and let the grown-ups talk?
Murray BGermany started and lost two world wars and yet many of them continued to believe they were super-humans. This belief is sometimes supported by historians that corrupt history into fiction. Of course they must do this because it is impossible for anyone to explain to others what they do not personally understand themselves?
One such idiot wrote that German rocket scientists were “twenty years ahead” of everyone else. This is hilarious on two counts.
The first is that Dr. Robert Goddard had discovered and published all of the important principles of liquid fueled rocketry before the war. The, so called, German “Rocket Scientists” were simply competent engineers scaling up Goddard’s designs.
The second is that Goddard’s developments ended in 1941 and the Germans were sending V-2s to London by ’44 so they were only three years ahead, if that much. Had the Allies chosen to invest vast sums of money developing something as wasteful as guided missiles there is no reason that western companies could not have produced similar devices at about the same time.
Armchair discussions based on fictional “history” are filled with errors and omissions. How good was the ME-262? Today we read it was fantastic but this comes mainly from non-technical historians. It was slightly faster than British jets which were in turn slightly faster than the best propeller designs but all the jets in those days had very low thrust compared to their weight. It was almost impossible for the German jets to climb high enough fast enough to have an advantage over propeller driven aircraft before they were engaged so they were shot down in droves. With regards to winning the war the jets on both sides were another waste of money that would have been better spent elsewhere.
One of the best aircraft of the period was the Mosquito which performed well and created fewer logiistical problems. It was made largely of plywood which was readily available but the aircraft performed as well as some of the best metal designs. It was a beautiful thing logistically and good logistics help to win wars. Germany tried to make wooden planes but they did not seem to have much success. [Here is a trick question on logistics. What is the muzzle velocity of a Browning 0.303 inch caliber machine gun that is out of ammunition?]
Effective weapons that are easy to make help win wars. Expensive super-weapons like Tiger and Panther tanks, jet and rocket fighters, and guided missiles all helped Germany lose the war.
So, yes, they were “better” by some measures but this put them behind enough to lose.
Murray BHere are some false and misleading statements featured by the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa a few years back and paid for with our tax dollars.
“The value and morality of the strategic bomber offensive against Germany
remains bitterly contested. Bomber Command’s aim was to crush civilian morale
and force Germany to surrender by destroying its cities and industrial installations.
Although Bomber Command and American attacks left 600,000 Germans dead,
and more than five million homeless, the raids resulted in only small reductions
in German war production until late in the war.”
It is a myth that strategic warfare was only used by Bomber Command and the Americans. The German V-1 and V-2 missiles were so inaccurate that they could only be used as unstoppable and undetectable terror weapons against large cities like London.
It may be true but it is also irrelevant that 600,000 Germans died in a war that killed about 60 million people in total.
It is a myth that the reductions were “small” since they were large enough to dramatically reduce V-2 attacks and help cause Germany to lose the war.
Murray BThanks Bill. Great shame for them losing all that revenue.
No museum in Canada should be wasting Canadian taxpayers’ money displaying a failed design from wholly British owned Avro Canada. Not only didn’t Canada own the design but the top people at Avro Canada were mostly Commonwealth citizens and not Canadians.
Records show that six production Arrows were made but only five were destroyed in Canada. The nose of one was displayed in Canada for some reason but there is strong evidence that one aircraft was flown to one of Avro Canada’s sister companies in the U.K. It was never put on display in a museum over there but an ejection seat and one of the Iroquois engines did turn up which indicates the aircraft was flown over there and eventually scrapped.
[There are photographs of conformal fuel tanks being fitted to the tail of an Arrow which would be required to fly it across the ocean since the unmodified aircraft’s 1254 nm. ferry range would not have allowed it to reach Iceland.]
Murray BDidn’t Clint Eastwood actually fly this in one the movies 10-15 years ago ?
Nope but the aircraft in the photo could not have flown in 1952 either. The canard foreplanes make it late fifties at the earliest but the chines to manipulate shock waves are definitely sixties or later. in 1952 aircraft had barely gone supersonic but this one looks like a Mach 3+ machine.
The aircraft in the movie Firefox was imaginary but it was correct in that the Soviets did have air-to-air missiles that could be launched backwards and western countries did not. The Soviet weapons used vectored thrust to maneuver and they could set the seeker to home in on the coldest spot in the sky which was the engine intakes of following aircraft.
Murray BAs noted above, the CF-105 had a shrouded external mount for it stores.
The Arrow had an internal weapons bay like the F-22 as shown by the official Canadian Air Force site at http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/arrowlst_e.asp
“During the test flights, the Arrow had flown at mach 1.96 and up to 50,000 feet, results that are still impressive by today’s standard of fighter Aircraft design… First flown in 1958, the Arrow proved to be the fastest, most sophisticated fighter in the world at the time, with a top speed of 1,650 mph…The Arrow was a very clean design and many of its features were copied on other North American-made fighters, including today’s F-22 Raptor.” [This is the funniest thing I have read in a long time.]
Clearly the CF-105 was 50 years ahead of its time and a fifth generation aircraft whereas the F-105 was only second generation. [Sorry, I just laughed so hard that I dribbled a bit and had to go change.]
It is interesting that both the CF-105 and F-105 flew with P&W J-75s. The Thunderchief with one 26,500 lb. rated J-75-P-19W and the Arrow with two 24,000 lb. rated J-75-P3s. An Arrow was fitted with a pair of 25,000 lb. rated Orenda Iroquois engines but it never flew. One engine “threw a blade” and it was not fixed before the government took the Joint Chiefs’ recommendation to cancel the program.
There is some evidence that an Arrow was tested with engines of 26,000 lb. maximum thrust. If so, then I expect it was with P-3s retrofitted with water injection like the P-19W’s.
P.S. Please note that the Arrow is the only aircraft in history to have achieved 1650 mph at mach 1.96. No other countrys’ aircraft has come close to duplicating this feat. [Aww, geeze, I did it again. I’m just going to go and have a bath.]
Murray BThanks for the informaton Mr. Hinderks.
I read that Blatchford field was the busiest airfield in North America at some points during WWII. Does this coincide with the information that you have?
Murray B[
But it still would have ended in tears as it seems Canada long ago gave up on the concept of a meaningful combat air force.
Mr. Boyle I am sorry that the Arrow fans, who are mostly from Ontario, have dragged you into what is mostly a political argument.
One good reason that the Arrow was cancelled was its high price.
From the Montreal Star, October 23, 1963,” Gen. Charles Foulkes, charman of the chiefs of staff committee from 1951 to 1960 testified yesterday that the Liberal Government of Prime Minister St. Laurent decided in 1957 it would cancel the Arrow interceptor program as soon as it was returned to power…Gen. Foulkes confirmed the 1959 statement of Mr. Diefenbaker that the chiefs of staff had recommended cancellation of the Arrow…the chiefs concluded that it did not make any sense to produce an $8,000,000 interceptor in Canada when one could be obtained in the U.S. for $2,000,000…”
The General did not mention anything about performance, or the lack thereof, because that was classified as SECRET at the time and for many years after. The old Generals did warn the Arrow fans to let this dog sleep but they were ignored. It would have been much better to let the Arrow be forgotten but because of all the untruths that have been told the facts must now come out.
After a little reading I have found that Avro could not deliver an airframe that met specifications and the RCAF really did not want the aircraft.
The Canadian Department of National Defence seems to be responsible for two main things. It issued the specification for an interceptor and then checked to insure that the contractor was meeting specifications.
The original specification is interesting for its maneuverability requirement. They wanted a 2g turn at Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet without loss of height or speed. This should have excluded a delta wing planform from the beginning since deltas don’t turn quickly without losing speed. Both the NAE and DRB [DND advisors] indicate that the aircraft had more drag then the contractor claimed. The project was cancelled in April ’53. Then something strange happened. For some reason it was decided to seek the opinion of an outside agency and NACA (NASA precursor) was asked to review the project..
A report of 19 NOVEMBER 1954 summarizes that NACA confirms that the drag is 50% higher than Avro claims. [That is basically what our guys said and I am proud that they knew that.] NACA also recommends “proper application of the area rule” and states that delta wings are “…poor planforms for high endurance and long range.”
[The NACA report is very interesting because it cost the Americans millions to discover the area rule, which was a trade secret, and they gave it to Canada for free. They also provided a B-47 bomber to test the Iroquois engine. I for one, am very sorry that for fifty years some Canadians have accused the Americans of wrongdoing without a shred of proof. It winds up that the Arrow was a completely “made in Canada” white elephant and the U.S. bears no responsibility for it.]
From an Arrow Mk 1 brochure it is clear that Avro did not change the wing planform much and only applied the area rule to the nose, intakes and tail section. Many other companies that succeeded in producing Mach 2+ aircraft applied the rule to the entire aircraft from tip to tail.
Clearly the aircraft still has a range problem after the fixes, based on information from a once secret memorandum dated 17 Jan 58 which states in part, “A reduction in ferry range to 1254 nm is not acceptable.”
The aircraft also may not have met the turn specification even though Avro managed to get it reduced to 1.5 g. In the report on “RCAF FLIGHT NUMBER TWO” that took place “28 Sep 58” they write, “…a level 180 degrees turn was attempted at Mach 1.5. Approximately 1.25G was required to maintain altitude at 45 degrees angle of bank. The altitude, however, did vary somewhat and the speed dropped to Mach 1.4.”
Not too long after that the program is cancelled for good and then, for some reason, all evidence was destroyed.
This is very strange. The Arrow’s performance was secret at the time and only four groups in Canada knew much about the problems. The government, the opposition parties, Avro management, and some people at the DND. Although the records seem to indicate that it is the DND that initiates the destruction of all traces of the aircraft they really don’t have any reason to do so. The DND is not responsible for a contractor failing to meet specifications. The Conservatives also have no worries since it was not their program. There is really only two of these four groups that benefits from the complete destruction of all evidence and they shall remain nameless.
From where I sit it does not look like the RCAF ever wanted the Arrow but an aircraft that met their specificatons. It looks like they are trying to get the Arrow cancelled from ’53 and keep getting overruled by politicians. Then they are ordered to take the Arrow and like it but that government gets defeated. Diefenbaker finally does the sensible thing and cancels the program as the DND recommends. The guilty parties then manage to shift the blame for the disaster onto Diefenbaker and the Americans and the rest is history.
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