RayRTo be honest Russia’s ability to deliver the Mig-35 on budget and on-time has to be suspect at best! Especially, after the last few Military Projects for India. On the otherhand most of the other candidate are basically turn key and ready to go! As a matter of fact I wouldn’t be surprised to see some Manufactures offer aircraft off the current production runs. Thereby giving India aircraft today! 😀 Not years down the road……….Clearly, a offer Russia could not provide with the Mig-35! I doubt the Typhoon Partners for example. Wouldn’t mind a slight delay in delivery’s to winner such a large export order. The same could be said for the other partners! Really, a big advantage when you think about it! 😎
Although its not as simple but I agree generally speaking.
RayRHelp me out here…when did the details for the F-22 emerge?
RayRAnother deal biting the dust?:confused:
Indo-Russian multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) JV heads for trouble as Irkut backs off
17 March 2008
In keeping with a consistent pattern over the last year or so which has seen all Indo-Russian defence projects run into delays for some reason or the other, now comes the news that Russian aerospace major, Irkut Corporation, has decided to pull out of a joint venture with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under which a sorely needed Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) would have been developed for the Indian and Russian Air Force.
A report in the Russian daily Vedomosti says that Irkut Corporation would instead focus on the MS-21 medium-haul passenger airliner, which it is developing together with Sukhoi Civilian Aircraft. Reports have also emerged that HAL is already looking for partners from Western nations to develop the project.
Under a 2002 deal, India and Russia had said that they would create a 50-50 joint venture, with a Russian consortium – Irkutsk Aviation and Industrial Association, the Ilyushin Aviation Complex and Rosoboronexport – contributing half of the $300 million development costs and HAL contributing the remainder.
Irkut-controlled Beriev and possibly Yakovlev were also due to join the programme at launch.
The MTA is meant to be a replacement for Russia’s ageing inventory of Antonov An-12 and An-26/32 turboprop transports, which first entered service in the 1970s. In 2002 the combined Indian and Russian market was estimated to be at 200 aircraft.
The twin-turbofan MTA was to be designated as the Ilyushin Il-214 in Russian service. Ilyushin had apparently begun the preliminary design phase by 2003.
According to the JV understanding, HAL was to design the front fuselage and wing while Russian companies would work on the rear and centre fuselage. While HAL would also contribute in the development of the avionics, engines would be sourced from Pratt & Whitney or Russian manufacturers.
Once again a familiar pattern is beginning to impose itself on this deal where all Russian-based defence programmes have run into trouble, with relations between the two countries cooling off as India and the US engage in a rapprochement, which also aims at reviving defence relationships between themselves.
Keeping in line with a commercial approach, which the Russians have adopted with their arms exports, Russians are now looking at India purchasing a limited number of aircraft directly and producing the remainder under license at HAL facilities. For India that option has already been foreclosed as it seeks to increase the quotient of locally developed technologies to higher levels in strategic areas.
Historically, India has struggled in the past with sanctions regime imposed by the West, and has also paid a terrible price dealing with unreliable and shoddy Russian spare parts. The Indian defence establishment is now determined to promote its indigenous arms industry and reduce reliance on Western and Russian suppliers.
According to industry sources, if HAL fails to get an appropriate response from the non-Russian companies, or if negotiations with Irkut and Ilyushin fail to make progress, the MTA programme could be abandoned and an open tender could be called for the aircraft.
Under the original plan, India would commit to a production order of 100 aircraft and take options for another 100, while Russia would have bought another 100. Production was to begin by the end of the decade, with the first aircraft entering service with the Indian Air Force in 2013.
By August 2007, with the project running into dispute with Russian companies over funding, HAL began seeking Western partners.
RayRSo whats new you said?Havent you already said that now like a million times over?
No one said were doomed, infact no one said the IAF is doomed and no one said that Russian aviation is doomed.
No. I was saying that.
what i did say though is it would appear the PAK-FA is a seriously troubled program,
Why is it troubled?
extremely late,
umm..So Uk is flying a stealth a/c.So is france , Sweden , India , Brasil Japan and and China.thats why its extremely late?
constantly being revised
Is revision of dates something extraordinary in the defence business?
as if there is no clear direction on the project or blunders are being made,
What blunder are you talking about?
i also said people should perhaps stop taking the propaganda surrounding the PAK-FA as gospel truth
So which is propaganda and which one is truth and how do you know it?
and perhaps start asking some serious questions,
Who should ask questions and to whom?
after all why should the Russian aviation industry get a free pass on being questioned.
To whom is russian aviation industry answerable and who is giving them a free pass?
If this project continues to blunder on at the same pace
What blunder are you talking about?
and still showing no signs of an actual aircraft
How can you see the actual aircraft before its built?
then over time yes it will become a real headache for the IAF
Over time…but not now correct?
How many years are they prepared to keep being told ‘its just around the corner’
What how many years?India finalised the deal late last year only.
then if it does ever materialise by say 2015
yes but now its just 2008.
its going to be a woefully outdated and inadequte aircraft
Outdated to what?Inadequate in what respect?be specific.
Forgive me if i question the Russians ability to produce a stealth fighter on par with the F-22
Everybody has their opinions.
but many areas of Russian tech are like it or not lagging far behind what the Americans can produce and use, where is the Russian experience with stealth to be able to jump straight to the top of the stealth game?
So you mean to say before building their first stealth plane the americans got that experience from somewhere otherwise they wouldnt be able to right?
Where is the Russian advanced man machine interfaces present on fighters such as the JSF , F22 and possibly the best example being the of the MMI that of the Eurofighter.Infact where are the advanced avionics on par with ‘western’ fighters with features such as data/sensor fusion, they might be half way there but there still lagging behind a good deal.
So thats your main problem?They are lagging behind the US?So whatever they will build is outdated?Wait a second..whats your problem whether they are actually building it or that they are building an outdated aircraft?Is Su-35 outdated?is Su-30MKI outdated?Is Mi-28 outdated?ka-52?Mig-AT?Brahmos perhaps?
There are many questions that need to be answered, perhaps if people could sit back and think these things through a bit more it may become a bit more clear why some of us have serious doubts.
Yes there are many questions and maybe you should sit back and and let more information arrive in due time instead of repeating the same things over and over again.
RayRWe are doomed , IAF is doomed , Russian aviation is doomed!
:rolleyes:
Now can we please get back to normal edition of this very interesting thread instead of having to wade through pages of stupid arguments repeated a hundred times?
RayRAnd money changes hands again:
Russia’s Weapon Exporter Loses Market Standing
Rosoboronexport is negotiating about the amount of penalty due to India for the delay in supplies of Il-38SD patrol jets. The analysts say Russia may lose the market of antisubmarine aircraft in that country, as the cheap price is hardly top priority for today’s India.
Rosoboronexport and India are to agree until the end of this month on the amount of penalty due to India for the late delivery of three patrol Il-38SDs. India accepted two jets that were upgraded by Ilyushin Co., including the installation of Sea Dragon (SD) system. But three jets are still in Russia, as Indian Navy refuses to take them.
According to the sources with Russia’s defense and industrial community, India has no more claims to the technical condition of the jets. “But India demands the payment of 5 percent of the contract budget (i.e. roughly $7.5 million), while we insist that the first two jets were supplied in line with the schedule,” said a source with United Aircraft Construction Corp.
Rosoboronexport signed the contract for upgrading five Il-38s into Il-38SDs (with SD installation) far back in 2001; the budget was $150 million. India suspended the payment in September of 2007, claiming the SD failed to perform up to the specification during the tests. People in Ilyushin Co. challenged that statement, specifying that SD operated up to the mark.
Nowadays, India is in talks with Boeing about the price for eight patrol antisubmarine P-8I Poseidons. The overall budget of that deal is estimated at $2 billion. U.S. Poseidon costs more than Il-38, but India’s economy steps up over 8 percent a year and the country can buy more expensive aircraft, said Konstantin Makienko, the expert at Strategy and Technology Analysis Center.
RayRSome other points of interest:
>Several new technologies are currently under development, like voice recognition, which will free the pilots’ hands from some of the comparatively less-important work in the cockpit.
> A multi-axis thrust vector control system is being developed for the Kaveri engine.(:o)
>Safran, selected as a partner,
RayRthats needs to be done out side the dome by a separate engineer so young pilots can be put into different situation
No I think the separate touch sensitive monitor located close to the cockpit is to obviate the need for another person OR for finetuning the simulator by the test engineer himself as he sits in the cockpit.
RayRThis isn’t at all like Gorshkov where the IN signed a contract which has deviated from what was agreed by a massive amount in both price and delivery schedules.
I am not saying its like the Gorshkov.Its just another controversy for the IN to deal with after the gorshkov fiasco.
The answer is then to look elsewhere. If the IN signed a contract in the full knowledge of what strings were attached then any questions over the reasons and implications should be addressed to the IN, not the USA. If these strings are unnacceptable nobody forced the IN to buy, just like there is plenty of competition for the other equipment they may buy from the US.
I am sure thats correct and the IN knew all along about the clauses and restrictions.And the US is not being blamed for the clauses they put in.They did what they had to do according to their interest.But the fact that those were accepted by the procuring party.And also the fact that if there isnt any realistic chance that this will be used in an actual war and that it is an old ship why put in the clauses at all?And the other more important issue >>In the era of increasing India-US cooperation if US could put in restrictions for a old LPD..what happens with future deals in offensive equipment?
RayRInteresting responses.More or less agree with Trident , swerve and SLL.
Or that its use would be prevented (short of sinking her, how?)
Its use cannot be prevented per se, but its use will put a bar upon future maintenance,refurbishment(of the ship+the helos) for which IN is still dependent on the US.
The restrictions will not affect India’s intended use of Trenton in particular – but if similar limitations were to be imposed on other US arms sales in general, they would likely be unacceptable.
I think your appraisal of the situation is more or less correct.Realistically thinking there isnt much chance that it will take part in an actual war(of course with our volatile neighbours you never know for certain:dev2: )but what all of this has done is to make tiny alarm bells ringing in the corner of the mind.Also note what the ex-Admiral says.Now the question is do things like these affect other deals?
RayRYum!lots of news on the Tejas.
Heres some more:
>EL/M 2032 fitted with comms
>Tarang RWR and ESM succesfully fitted and tested
>Nice 😎 simulator up and running as well.
So all in all good progress.
RayRNag ATGM Trials.
Courtesy Ajai Shukla and sniperz11s:
Nice vid!
RayRThe Navy is probly wondering how they are going to get out of the mess the Goverment put them in!:eek:
Could be.
..Govt , Russians , govt backing Russians whilst they dont deliver…anything:rolleyes:
RayRWhats cooking..?:cool:
Navy chief holds meeting on a houseboat
Staff Reporter
ALAPPUZHA: In a highly confidential meeting, Chief of the Naval Staff Sureesh Mehta and other top Navy officials met on a houseboat here on Monday night.
Admiral Mehta, sources said, was accompanied by the chiefs of the three naval commands: Flag Officers Commanding-in-Chief and Vice-Admirals — Jagjit Singh Bedi of the Western Naval Command, Raman Prem Suthan of the Eastern Naval Command and Sunil K. Damle of the Southern Naval Command.
They arrived here by car from Kochi by 9 p.m. and headed straight to the boat jetty at the Punnamada Finishing Point, where they boarded two houseboats. After spending the night on the Vatta Kayal, where most houseboats anchor for the night, the four held a short meeting on one boat before alighting at the Finishing Point at 11.15 a.m. They then left for Kochi by car.
Under wraps
The details of the meeting were kept under wraps. Their arrival and departure were closely guarded till their long convoy passed through the town.
The security personnel of the visitors were lodged in the State Guest House at Kommadi, where three rooms were booked a few days earlier. The district police provided escort to them on their way here and back, police sources said.
On August 18, 2007, top authorities of the Indian Air Force, led by Chief of the Air Staff Fali Homi Major spent a night on six houseboats before disembarking at Kumarakom the next day.
Air Chief Marshal Major, on that occasion, was accompanied by 16 Air Marshals, including the heads of the seven Air Force commands in the country. However, that was a private affair.
source:The Hindu
RayROh God they don’t want the Kitty!
Too big, too hard to crew, too hard to maintain and too old!
Yes you are right..
but atleast they (IN) will have something to fly their a/c from..as compared to flying the mig29s off half a ship in the sevmash yard.6-7 refuellers at waypoints will help the Mig29s to reach the indian ocean for missions.:D
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