Flight International January 1989

So even if it says in 1989 they froze the design that can still be accepted since the definition was completed only in sep 88.That still throws your 83 claim out of the window.

Now I would welcome the History re-writers to dsicredit the Flight Internation and also declare Poject director to be idiot.

As I said before their inexperience made them say that after completing the PD in sep 88 , they could make it fly within 3 years.

And for those “indigenous composite Tech” walas here is Kota hariharan repeating again the composite reality:

Dr Harinarayana is confident that India will be able to produce all the components and subsystems itself. “We might go in for some external assistance for the composite material for the wings and the digital fly-bywire systems,” he says.

Even that is hardly surprising since India didnt have any composite manufacturing base then.

So PD was finalised in 1988, actual design work on LCA started in 1992, yet the engines to power the aircraft were ordered in 1986? This does not makes sense to me…by this I dont mean that its wrong, rather i do not understand it. Although I know engines can be chosen in advance to test the concepts, but is it norm to choose them years before you start your work on the basic design?

It simply means that the aircraft is built around the engine.You need to start it from somewhere concrete when none of it is decided.And in this case the people thought “okay what good engine can we use”..and they found the F404 and that fulfilled one of the 5 requirements.The first 11 was only there for powering the TDs and PVs.The actual production a/c were always going to be powered by the Kaveri.

PS. BR is not the most reliable source of information for me (personally).

BR is a treasure trove of information.Particularly historical.Even the armed forces officially and unofficialy endorse BR for the accurate and varied information it provides.Most of the articles there are anyway written by members/ex-members of the Indian armed forces themselves.People from BR(non servicemen) have won recommendation by the CAS himself!Plus the articles in the link I provided are written by well known people and people who have been involved in the LCA programme.So you cannot dismiss them by collectively calling “BR”.Hell even articles by test pilots are there!!

In fact any site which allows its members to express hateful and racist comments so openly will fall into that category for many people.

Dont club together BR site and BR Forum.They are different.BRF members(Indians) dont hold antagonistic views about 99% of countries and their people..its only 1 or 2 countries that gets their goat:diablo:

Anyway I understand your viewpoint:) ..but well..no comments.

Quite a lot of money for a country like India back in 80s.

So?Even today 1000$/month is good salary for the average Indian..but it doesnt buy you a car on a months pay!

I dont know the details but this money was probably not just for feasibility studies and setting up the committees but also for establishing infrastructure???

Ofcourse not!I wasnt being very technical there.People who harp about the 1983 date dont know that Aeronautical Development Agency which is the prime organisation behind development of the LCA was itself established in 1984-85.As I said the money was to be used to create that condition where one could plan about development of a fighter aircraft.That definitely includes setting up infrastructure for components to be made inhouse and forming partnerships for components that cannot be made in the country.After completion of the Project definition stage in late 88 , govt review committee was setup on 1989 which reviewed that said condition and gave the green light that yes the ability to develop an indigenous aircraft now exists.money was allocated and actual development started by 1990.

Having said this I have maintained for a long time that LCA project management was not competent enough for such a project (due to their lack of experience). They thought they could run before they had learnt to walk.

In a way you are correct , but the more correct version would be that they had forgotten how to walk after sitting for a long time.After the development of Marut no significant R&D happened for sometime.Departments were closed , technical people moved to foreign Cos(even automobile) and that knowhow was lost.But in the end all of it proved worthwhile.Its still 2 yrs from the time LCA attains IOC but Indian aviation industry base has been formed.In all aircrafts India buys there are multiple Indian components.Several aviation projects are going on.IJT flew in record time.JVs are being signed with international cos for supply of components.So all in all though the effort to re-learn how to walk was a difficult one..but it was worth the effort.

BTW when did India order first engines for LCA?

iirc it was 1986.ADA assessed it needed 5 basic things:the composite wing ,the engine, avionics, glass cockpit and the fbw.The marut experience had taught that India was still far away from development of the engine so GE-404s were ordered straightaway(for the prototype+LSP) and Kaveri programme was launched.Till 1998(before the embargo) about 11 engines were supplied.

Everything was on paper before 1990.A review committee was setup in 1989 to assess the in house ability.Funding for development was allocated in 1990 and Phase 1 was started.But full scale funding was only given by mid 1993.

The Program
Project definition (PD) commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September I988. The consultant, chosen from four contenders, was Dassault Aviation, France. Engineers, connected with design and development of aircraft know how vital it is to get the ‘definition’ correct. From this flows detail de-sign, construction and eventually maintenance costs.

After examining the PD documents, the IAF felt that the risks were too high (likely shortfalls in performance, inordinate delay, Cost over-run, price escalations) to proceed further. A Review Committee was formed in May 1989. Experts from outside the aviation industry were included. The general view was that infrastructure, facilities and technology had advanced in most areas to undertake the project. As a precaution, Full Scale Engineering Development would proceed in two phases. Phase 1: design, construction and flight test of two Technology Demonstrator aircraft (TDI & 2); construction of a Structural Test Specimen; construction of two Prototype Vehicles (PVI &2); creation of infrastructure and test facilities. Phase 2: construction of three more PV ‘5, the last PV5, being a trainer; construction of a Fatigue Test Specimen; creation of facilities at various work centres. Cost of Phase I – Rs.2188 crores, of Phase II – Rs. 2,340 crores. Phase I commenced in 1990. However, due to a financial crunch, sanction was accorded in April 1993 and was marked by an upsurge in work. The critical path in this program has been the design, fabrication and testing of its fly-by-wire flight control system FCS). An electronic FCS is a must for an aircraft with relaxed static stability.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/wollen.html

And there is half the problem, how do you know he is for real? you and the dozens of others that hang onto his every word have no way in hell of knowing if hes real or a joker, whats happening i think is you all want to believe his every word so are taking in everything he claims without even thinking about it. Like i say no one in there right mind who is working on whats meant to be Russias most important aviation project would even dream about logging into some chat room and blabbing supposedly classified information – it’d be like signing his death warrent! No one who is an aerospace engineer is going to risk it all for the sake of impressing a few people on the internet!

So somebody on an internet forum is the only source of information?What about the information given by Sukhoi,Saturn,Vympel,Technocomplex,Russian MoD,Indian MoD,Indian and Russian media?All those count for squat?

Hawks over India!

From Shiv Aroors blog:More pictures here.

Russia just hasn’t spent the money and research to fund the PAK-FA to the likely capabilities needed to surpass both American types. (i.e. F-22 & F-35) IMO:cool:

Hey Russia didnt spend that much money and came up with the Su30-35 which are at the level of the EF or Rafale..:diablo:

…or maybe they spent it.Accept it that the Russia we are seeing today isnt the same as the 90s and early 2000s.Several projects are running,new things are being done.Even India is putting 5 bn $ into it.Plus it wouldnt be that accuratecomparing to western standards also.