RayRSo are you suggesting the Russians will just build the Brahmos themselves? Or buy it from India? The fact that it is a joint venture makes this confusing, I wonder if NPO Mashinostroeyenia can make the missiles themselves.
So I wonder which one it’s gonna be.. Brahmos or more Yakhont improvement :confused:
I dont know why its confusing.Lets see it this way Brahmos is the upgraded(and completed) version of the original missile with india providing some subsytems.Now if Russia wants to use it,she may use it with the Indian subsystems or replace them with Russian subsystems.In the latter case it might not technically be a “brahmos”.Why would they need to buy it from India?It is a Jv, a corporation.profits go both ways.
The Yakhont on paper looks little different from the Brahmos, being possibly 10KM longer ranged, with a warhead smaller by 50KG, and some .6 mach slower.I’m sure the Russians themselves could twink Yakhont’s original specs upwards.
The 10km less on paper is to comply with MTCR.IIRC DRDO(Indian partner) chief has said the range could be increased upto 500 kms.
But anyway people are looking towards the development of the hypersonic Brahmos II now.
“The hypersonic BrahMos missile-2, to be readied in 4-5 years, will create need for further expansion of facilities,” Pillai, better known as `India’s Missile Man’ said.
World’s fastest missile, BrahMos cruise missile, is a sought-after product in export market. Pillai, however, declined to divulge the list of potential importers, commenting the buyers will be jointly identified by India and Russia.
Pillai is the CEO of Brahmos corp.
RayRI think it would be more likely that the Yakhont or a modernized/improved version of the missile would be used in the RuAF / Navy / Army instead of the Brahmos, since the Brahmos is actually a Yakhont development, and the Russians have a history of never selling a “top” platform to anyone, which would mean doing something to make the “Yakhont-M” or whatever significantly better than the Brahmos I would think.
Look no country sells its top technology to another country , however close they might be.But lets have a look at the Yakhont/Brahmos thing.Yakhont wasnt fully developed due to financial constraints.So India chipped in with financial aid and a JV was started to make the missile operational.Now naturally Russia wouldnt want to part with things in the missile which it considers sensitive.So India included its own subsystems(navigation systems,onboard computer ,some parts of propulsion , fire control system electronics , the software etc.) for its own use.Therefore Russia is also saved from handling over sensitive technology and India is saved from getting downgraded equipment.That is the benefit of a JV.
Also..dont take it as a given that Indian evaluators always think that Russian equipment is always the best option available.In that case they dump the Russian thing and go for a better system available inhouse or in the world market.Eg as in MKI,Mig-29K etc.
All can be said is that the IA , IN are very happy with what they have.Hopefully the same will work out for the sub-launched and the air launched variant.
So it dont think anything can be conclusively said which one is the downgraded version.
RayRThe antiship capability of the Su should be Kh-31A/P , Kh-29TE , Kh-59ME , Kh-35 and later Brahmos.
RayRDoes make one laugh, Iran is probably the most democratic countrys in the persian gulf region, more democratic than the US’s close allies yet they have the worst relations.
Agreed.;)
RayRFound this..Longewala revisited.
RayRI know; in fact the ranges of early(non-loft) AMRAAM and R 77 must be the same; the heavier (~10kg) Russian engine is compensated by the draggier lattices. But the figures quoted by various “reliable” sources (from Carlo Kopp articles describing the imminent attack of Australia by hordes of Chinese Flankers :p to various Veniks lurking on aviation forums) are 90-100 km :p
What do you think are the ranges of Amraam C series?
RayRConspiracy theory:Maybe they will dump Vikrad and buy the Kitty!:eek: /or maybe they will have both!:eek: 😮
Anyway!
It is an excellent trainer.The only things that can be said against the Hawk 132 is that it isnt supersonic and it doesnt carry a radar and RWR(?).I would have liked it to carry a small radar like the 200 series.Can it carry a podded radar?If so what radar?
RayRAnd the really impressive thing about Brahmos is the development of the longer ranged Scramjet powered version!:eek:
iirc they have said that it will be completed around 2014-15 but I will wait till it actually happens.
RayRHope to god that never happens either, since whatever the Russians sell India is going to be worse than what they give themselves, I am sure – you know? Old Soviet doctrine.. the one that Russia adopted?
Except that brahmos isnt exactly a buy-sell kind of thing.
RayRTranslation of the above:
FROM RUSSIA NOT OTSTAET dollars in fashioning ISTREBITELYA FIFTH GENERATION
First Vice-Premier of the Russian Federation Sergey Ivanov said at a press conference at the central office of Interfax that Russia does not lag behind other countries, including the United States, in creating the fifth-generation combat aircraft. “I want to assure you that there is no ten-year backlog no ‘- Ivanov said. According to him, untrue assertion of some experts that created in Russia promising aviation front Aviation Complex (PAC FA) yields in the United States created the fifth-generation fighter aircraft “Reptor.”
“About what we are ten years behind – from which lagged behind, of ‘Reptora’ And you know the comparative characteristics’ Reptora ‘PAC and the FA?” — he turned to a journalist, zadavshemu issue. “Actually, these people know the characteristics of ten, because it is classified information” – he said.
According to the first vice-premier, the development of a multi-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft is in a digital format. “Chertezhey aircraft have long kulmanah does not exist” – he said.
Source: Rosbalt. Ru and Vesti. Ru, 23.05.2007
“About what we are ten years behind – from which lagged behind, of ‘Reptora’ And you know the comparative characteristics’ Reptora ‘PAC and the FA?” –
Familiar type of argumentation..is he a member of Keypub?:diablo:
RayR– the “new” K-77-1 (Izdeliye 170-1) has a range 2-3.5 times bigger than the curent R-77 (Izdeliye 170), while only matching the AIM 120 D ????? :p :p :p OMG, OMG !!!!!! So the 90 km range trumpeted for the R 77 is nothing more than Russianfans wet dreams ? :diablo:
The official figure for R77 is 50 km for fighter target 80 km for large target.
RayRHow many did they launch against a ship that was fighting back with modern weapons?
Well that kind of information is not available to public.But there has been statements made about the ability of Brahmos to engage under heavy ECCM conditions and against modern ship defences.
Provided you have the ability to overwhelm them. All defenses can be overwhelmed but not all countries can overwhelm all defenses.
The country here in question is Russia and they have that capability.
X-30, X-51, HyFly,. . . In other words until they do it it’s just talk
.
Yeah sure..few decades ago stealth was talk also.
RayRBut it also severely reduces thereaction time which is the most important thing.The Brahmos already gives a reaction time or 5 min or less.
RayRRay,
Thats not really the case though is it?. We know, from observation on the older weapons and from their own advertising on the newer models, what profiles these weapons fly. We KNOW from the testing undertaken that our systems are capable of defeating weapons flying those specific profiles. It is that simple.
You can say that, for example, a P-700 might have armour and ECM that could alter the dynamic, but, all it does is introduce a small random element in the equation. The fact is that missiles flying those profiles are defeated and would HAVE to have some additional capability to stand any chance of penetrating shipboard defences on an individual basis.
Carrying that point to its logical conclusion then any missile that doesnt have advanced ECM or similar add-on capability will be a marginal threat unless it is fired in sufficient quantity to swamp the shipboard defence potential.
It all goes back to the point that I always make on these threads. The determining factor in the success of a missile attack on a competent escort vessel is not whether the missile is supersonic/subsonic or big/small its whether it can engage the target without alerting its defences.
If you catch a group of AEGIS ships steaming at low alert state and can launch your attack with stealthy, passive, missiles you are probably sending those ships home with bits missing. Otherwise the first sniff they get of your missiles active seeker they go to action stations and you have to try and saturate the defences which, for a group of three AEGIS ships is up to 12 simultaneous channels of fire, dozens of missiles simultaneously airborne under MCG and extensive soft-kill behind the missiles.
Your point about ECM and and that the ability of the missile to strike its target without alerting its defences are all good.The problem I have is about the statement I highlighted.
For example show me any advertisement for the brahmos/sizzler/any other missile where it says about its terminal engagement manouevres.How many degrees does the missile zigzag towards the left/right/any direction?At what distance from the intended target does the terminal manouevres start?What is the range where the seeker is activated?For that matter antimissile defences also have their engagement limits.We are not aware of those either.
Also about the ECM..well I dont think we could be certain that the variable it introduces into the equation has a small effect or a large effect on the outcome of the equation.It could be small , but it also may not be so.Also the fact that the variable could alter depending on conditions of engagement.
Fact is these are highly guarded secrets.
I watched the video.I dont think its conclusive.Test conditions are different from wartime real conditions and sometimes radically so.Even it can be said that 100% of Brahmos tests were successful against various conditions against various sorts of targets.
The thing is that the ability of these systems are reflected by the confidence of the users on them and that at this time those are the best solutions the users can have NOT the ultimate solutions.Direct comparison is difficult.
A general comment about antimissile defences…all antimissile defences can be overwhelmed by saturation attacks.
P.S.Latest news is Brahmos-2 will soon start development which will have scramjet propulsion further increasing its speed.
RayRThe Last two mentioned ‘Japan and India’ are really unique, they do not represent the usual export markets for top end fighters by European manufacturers
Not exactly true.India has along history of purchasing from European manufacturers.
Mirage 2000 ,Jaguar , Hunter , Gnat , Harrier ,Vampire , Ouragon , Mystere , Alize , Sea Hawk etc etc.Infact if I count in all India has bought more European types than Russian types throughout history.
The Brit aircrafts..we like ’em.;) Historically too.
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