May I make the point that Hong Kong isn’t actually a country – if we start listing autonomous regions without airforces we’ll be here for a long time.

Ken,

I was very impressed by your photographic Latvian OrBat! Very nice!

…And finally: Man do I love An-2s!

Chefo,

I have several gripes with your post which is why I think you’re misunderstanding a few things. Allow me to explain:

The Serbian people should understand that right now money spent on expensive war toys is simply money wasted. The Serbian army has good gear as it is (if Serbia has to face Albania), spending on a fleet is a bit pointless and given how badly the country was hurt during the NATO bombings

Currently the armed forces of Serbia are in a dire state and badly need effective reform and an injection of capital if they are to continue to exist at all. True the army is in a much better state than the airforce but both are in such a terrible state so the difference is not particularly important for the needs of this discussion. Anyhow, as you’ll see from my previous posts I haven’t exactly been an advocate of expensive purchases of brand new aircraft and other equipment. That said I do think that Serbia needs to maintain a fleet (however big) of effective combat aircraft. This isn’t simply aimed at Albanian seperatist/terrorist elements but is, in my opinion, required for a nnumber of reasons. The same reasons why any nation needs an effective military – I trust that it is surplus to requirements for me to list them now. Suffice to say that nobody knows what the future will hold and allowing things to rot now may be costly 20 or 30 or 50 years down the line. So, if possible, I think it highly prudent to maintain a fast jet capability even if that means holding onto a couple of squarons of (maybe upgraded) MiG-21s for the next few years.

I say forget about militarism and get a better standard of life for your citizens. When your economy is back on track and running instead of crawling, buy whatever you guys desire.

I can hardly argue with that. Allow me, however, to say that Serbia’s economy is growing rather quickly and this growth appears to be sustainable for the near future especially as economic reforms and privatisation of the public sector continues. Therefore, to call what is esentially an attempt (if such an attempt ever materialises) to maintain and sustain effective armed forces ‘militarism’ is going more than a little far.

What I was trying to say is that some nationalistic generals in the Serbian army (or politicians) may still dream for military and teritorial greatness Yogoslavia style and these folks are simply out of touch with reality.

It is a gross miscomprehension of the history of Yugoslavia (either Yugoslavia) to link it to territorial greatness for Serbia. Besides, even at the hight of the Serbian, post-communist, national awakening there were never any serious generals or politicians who were harbouring dreams of territorial greatness. I say serious because there were a few, Seselj for e.g., who did harbour such ambitions but were very rarely in any position to do anything about it.

Yet, even for people who live across the pond, they find it hard to resist talking about Yugoslavia’s former greatness.

Yugoslavia’s greatness is still talked about everywhere, from Zagreb and Ljubljana to Skopje. The greatness of this multi-national state should not, however, under any circumstances be misunderstood to be connected to greatness for/of Serbia – these two concepts are very different and seldom even remotely connected. I must add that they can be thought to have a certain relationship with eachother only at the very beginning of the first Yugoslavia, immediately after WWI.

That’s nostalgia and the sooner you realize that this will never happen again, the better off you will be for you will be able to look ahead instead of being blinded by dreams of what might have been if Milosevic had not screwd up in a major way.

Yes true, there is a lot of nostalgia about but not just for Serbs. Yugoslavia, rather than being the “prision of peoples” as it was depicted in German propaganda was, for a long time, a succesful multi-national state with greater rights for its constituent nations and national minorities than any other state that I can think of anywhere on the globe. The nostalgia for the old Yugoslavia is linked to this fact and not to some ideas of Serbian greatness. The reasons for the collapse of this state are very complicated and to take even a superficial look at the internal and external factors would result in a post much longer than this one.

My point in all this is that the expenditure of any funds that could be made available (and I’m not saying that any are in fact available) in order to maintain, and maybe improve upon, a combat aircraft capability would not be linked to militarism, expansionism or latent nationalism but would simply be a prudent effort to keep things in the military from decaying completely.

Such a shame though – I love the An-2! Weirdly enough I find them quite beautiful now, though I must admit that I used to think them ugly in an interesting way.
Anyway, my interest in aviation stems partly from watching these giant insects wheel elegantly over the skies of Belgrade when I was a kid (they’re used to spray Belgrade with all kinds of toxic insecticides every summer). From a distance (a great distance) their engines sound like a motorcycle’s and you’d be forgiven for thinking that some kids were messing around on bikes until a great big An-2 pops up over the hill and whizzes over your house – so close it looks like the wheels are going to clip your chimney.

Hamburger,

it is unlikely Serbia’s potential threat lay in hordes of BVR capable aircraft

Nobody said anything about “hordes” but Serbia should bear in mind that apart from Albania and BiH every one of her other neighbours have BVR capable aircraft.

Billy

Mig-21-93 upgrade costs more than it’s worth and it’s not very useful as a bomber anyways. Look at its pathetic payload. Besides, what kind of threat could Serbia possibly face from any of its neighbors where a Mig-21-93’s a2g capabilities could do something that a G-4 couldn’t, or even a howitzer?

Its a Mach 2 capable aircraft which is capable of dropping PGMs – I am bemused as to how it compares to a G-4 or a howitzer?

What is the status of the G-4M upgrade? I know a single prototype was tested, bombed in 1999, then rebuilt and tested again in 2002. I have not seen anything since that article in 2002. Is there any chance of this upgrade being actually carried out on the G-4 fleet?

What is the status of the LVB-250 LGB which is mentioned at ACIG?

What is the status of the UAV’s in development, and are any procurements planned?

What is the status of the Lasta?

All of them are in various stages of limbo – somewhere inbetween development and procurement… As far as I am able to tell. No money and no real will to get anything done.

FC-1? I don’t think so, it would be an embrarrassment for Yugoslavia to get such a low end fighter, considering it has always had the very latest fighters (ie they got the Mig-21 only 2 years after the Soviet AF got them, and Mig-29’s only 3 years after the Soviet AF got them). The FC-1 is inferior in almost every way to fighters some other Balkan countries are getting, like Gripens.

You’ll be interested to know that Yugoslavia doesn’t exist anymore and that Serbia is only one third the size of its ‘parent state’. Furthermore Serbia has endured devestating economic sanctions and also been at the wrong end of a bombing campaign among other hardships which I won’t bother to list here. Her armed forces are quite possibly in the worst state they have been in since WWI. Things really are dire you know. Any knew equipment, or even patched up MiG-21s, would be most welcome and nothing to be embarassed about.

Billy and Srbin,

The Mig-21 should not be upgraded in any way, instead they should fly them in their current state until 2010, and then purchase the very best fighter anyone will offer them. Think PAK-FA…

and

IMO I think the Mig-21 should only be kept for Air Policing and to give our pilots supersonic flight and such. Then in 2010 replace with whatever

Is something happening in 2010 that I don’t know about?

Well if you ask me neither is very likely for a long time (including what ever combinations of NATO and EU one likes to think up) but that is not to say that military aquisitions will not be geared towards one or the other (or both) – regardless of the likeliness of successful entry into either organisation.

Interesting idea – I wonder if the FC-1 can be made NATO compatible.

Here we go: AFM, August 2004, page 10, Overhaul of SCG aircraft in Russia. The article goes on to talk of discussions about a possible MiG-29 refurbishment/overhaul not an upgrade. That being said I’d agree with you that scrapping the MiG-29 and going for a full blown MiG-21 upgrade, as opposed to a mere MiG-29 overhaul, sounds more sensible. Just as an example, the MiG-21 Lancer seems to be working reasonably well for Romania.

Oops, sorry. Minor misunderstanding regarding the words “refurbishment” and “upgrade”. My mistake. Anyway, a refurbishment and overhaul would seem to make sense – i.e. why not use them and keep them flying for another couple of years.

This info came straight from the serb defense ministry….

No it didn’t. Your post displays a very subjective view of the history of the former Yugoslavia, not to mention of the break-up of said state. It does, however, neatly fit the historiography of some of the republics which broke away – that doesn’t make it fact. I will not dispute your right to have an opinion on this matter, how or why would I, but your post should not be taken as fact by other members of the forum. I hope that they would have the sense to take into consideration the subjectivity of posters (including my own), particularly when such a debateable topic is being discussed.

I will also add that there is one thing your post rightly highlighted and that is the dire state of the air force (and armed forces in general) of Serbia and Montenegro. That is not to say that this was stated in a factually correct manner or that the brief background you gave was even remotely linked to fact.