santiagorivasDoes someone know the exact position of the Type 42 on may 1st? It’s possible that Nogueira was confused on the type of ship, as the FAA pilots were not trained to fight against ships and they only saw a Type 42 on the exercises conducted some days before with the Argentine Navy.
About the casual encounter with the Argentine fleet it’s true the FAA pilots didn’t know the position of the ships as one of the mai failures from the Argentine side was the total lack of communication between the three services. Each service fought their own war and only some minor operations were made together as the one on May 30th and some ground or air support operations on the islands.
santiagorivasHi Jualbo, I know that testimony and is almost the same as Nogueira told me in 2000 when I interviewed him, but he says he presumed the ships were heading to Falkland sound but not that the ships were close to the shore. That’s why I think maybe it was one of the Type 42 acting as radar pickets. Specially because he says he saw a bigger ship when he tried to go to BAM Malvinas. I think he was going forward to the British carrier group. The Brilliand and Yarmouth were cloe to the islands, so to fly from there to BAM Malvinas he had to fly over the islands but he continued flying over the sea until he turned back. The Canberras were coming from the northwest as they were flying from Trelew, which is to the north. Making a line from Trelew to Berkeley Sound they passed at about 100 kilometers to the west of the position the carrier group was when the Tracker detected them during that day, so the Type 42 had to be very close to the bombers route.
Anyway maybe it’s possible the ships were the Brilliant and Yarmouth, according to what the Brilliant sailor says, but the problem is how to explain the damage.
About the chaff that Steve says, the Chaff dispensers were installed in the Canberras later during the war.
santiagorivasSantiago, Nogueira told that the ship that fired at them, was close to shore (exactly in a point they thought was the north mouth of Falkland Sound).
Were there any chaff rocket close to bow in Type 14 and T-22. Yarmouth claims for ASW mortar launching that day.On 7th june, in the Learjet did see the launching of the first missile from
Exeter.On 25th may I think it was Garcia the pilot who ejected and was found dead one year later in his surviving boat in Golding island, north West falkland and south from Pebble island. Palaver was short of fuel after being hit by own AAA over Goose Green. He then decided to go up to save fuel, being detected by Coventry that downes him. I think he didn´t eject.
Most of missiles launchings seen by Canberra pilot happened over Weddell island, west of West Falkland.
I didn’t find any report from Nogueira saying he watched the islands. He said he was going to attack a possible landing on Berkeley sound and en route they found some ships to the north of the islands and the ships fired missiles against them. He was only sure of watching a ship firing missiles from the front part. This was not the Argentine fleet as they flew over the fleet before entering the TEZ and also in their return. As the FAA radar detected CAPs coming from the north on that day I think it’s possible the Canberras found the carrier group. The FAA radar informed the CAPs were coming from the north and from the east. At 15:13 local time the COAN S-2E Tracker 2-AS-23 detected seven ships at 49º34’S / 57º10’W to the north/ northeast of the islands. By that time, the carrier group comprised nine ships, as five were detached close to the coasts. With the carrier group were the HMS Sheffield, Glasgow and Coventry, which I think were closer to the Argentine mainland and because of this, close to the route of the bombers. I think one of this was the ship that fired against the Canberras.
santiagorivasI doubt very much that a Learjet flying at 40,000 feet could do anything to avoid a Sea Dart missile (just my opinion) and there were many witnesses in San Carlos who saw one missile fall-away long before it reached the altitude of the Learjets. It is also probable that both Sea Dart missiles were fired in ‘salvo’ at a single target (Learjet T-24).
I think it’s possible, as a Boeing 707 did. Also is possible that both missiles were fired against the same target.
santiagorivasIronically I’ve just been reading ‘Forgotten Voices of the Falklands’ (the book that prompted the start of this thread) and there are a couple of interesting accounts in there, particularly from Captain Hugh Maxwell Balfour the captain of HMS Exeter.
Following the action of 30th May he writes:
Now my understanding is that HMS Exeter fired three Sea Dart missiles on 30th May, one at the Exocet which missed, and two which destroyed an A4 Skyhawk each (hence the seven remaining missiles down from the previous ten). I think I am correct in saying that a Type-42 can carry a total of twenty-two Sea Dart missiles but that two missiles are telemetry missiles that are fired at the start of a deployment to check the calibration of the Sea Dart system (hence the starting number of twenty missiles).
HMS Exeter didn’t arrive in the combat area until 21st May and didn’t shoot-down Learjet T-24 (with two missiles) until 7th June. So it would seem that HMS Exeter fired a least fifteen missiles during the conflict and had fired thirteen of these by 30th May.
That is a lot of Sea Dart missiles that are unaccounted for; the question is what were they fired at?
Do they fired missiles at San Carlos?? When this ship went to San Carlos for the first time?
santiagorivasI think this is another case of aircrew exaggerating their post combat reports, let me explain. With reference to the night Canberra missions my ship HMS Cardiff constituted 50% of the Type 42 contingent on the dates quoted. HMS Bristol had Seadart but was not tasked with inshore night missions throughout her time down south and only one of the Type 42s were detached from picket duty at any one time.
4 June: Cardiff on NGS gunline Bluff Cove – no Seadarts fired.
12 June: Cardiff in San Carlos – no Seadarts fired.
Without looking to see where Exeter was on the other nights in question , how do you explain the airborne Seadarts on the 4th and 12th June?
Hi, It’s possible that they exaggerated. On June 5th they said they saw the missiles very close and the plane passed through the contrail of one missile losing control because of the turbulence. On June 4th Casptain Freijó, pilot of B-105 flying with callsign Puma said that after his bombing he was advertised of a PAC by the FAA radar. Later he drop chaff and by mistake also flares. He said he saw two missiles on the same moment the radar advertised that the PAC wasn’t that and were the missiles they saw. If they were not missiles I don’t know what did they saw. In the middle of the night it’s easy to get confussed about what you see.
On the report of the 12th of June the pilots of B-108 are not clear about the presence of missiles.
santiagorivas[QUOTE=Creaking Door;1359590]
HMS Exeter did fire two missiles on this occasion but I understand there was a technical failure onboard one missile long before it could be ‘avoided’ by any other Learjet.
QUOTE]
I don’t know if the missile had a technical failure and I think this is almost impossible to know. The account of captain Bianco, pilot of the other Learjet, says his copilot saw the two missiles coming towards them. He advised De La Colina and he replied he also saw them and that he will start a tight turn to the left. Bianco also turned in the same moment he saw the impact on the T-24. Immediately he started to return to the mainland.
santiagorivasIn the cases of kills by Sea Dart, in all cases the pilots didn’t react to the missiles.
The first one was the Puma helicopter on 9th of May, the second was the A-4B Skyhawk of Lt Palaver, the third one was the A-4C Skyhawk of Lt García both on May 25th. On May 30 the A-4Cs of Lt Vázquez and Castillo were shot down by Exeter during the attack on HMS Invincible.
The same ship shot down the Learjet T-24 and the last was the Canberra.
In all this cases the pilots didn’t realize they were under attack. In the Invincible mission, the survivor A-4C pilots, Ureta and Isaac, told they didn’t saw the Exeter nor the missiles approaching. Also in the case of Palaver and García, they didn’t saw the missile coming: Palaver survived the impact and tried to return to his base, but the airplane was losing fuel and fell into the sea.
In the case of the T-24, the crew of the other Learjet saw the missile seconds before impact and they said they avoided a second missile fired upon them.
The Canberra pilots said they avoided Sea Darts fired during the night missions on June 1st, 4th, 5th, 10th and 12th. On June 5th, the B-101 was almost shot down by a missile that passed very close and made the pilot (1st Lt Mauad) to lose control of the plane. When the pilot landed he went off the runway and caused minor damage to the plane. This was one of the radar equipped Canberras.
Also was the case of the Boeing 707, although in this case the missiles were fired very far, but one exploded very close to the tail of the plane.
Also on may 9th two Learjets (callsign Pepe, sadly I don’t have the serials of those planes as they are not stated on the FAA records) on a diversion flight to the islands, simulating an attack mission, at 10:30AM local time saw two missiles coming towards them and manoeuvered succesfully to avoid them. Those were the first two missiles fired by HMS Coventry.
As Nogueira said the missile was fired from the front of the ship and they were not very close, I think it was a Sea Dart.
In the case of the Sea Wolf, none pilot said it could be avoided and most missiles fired hit their targets.
santiagorivasHi Jualbo, thanks for your opinion about us. About the 1st of May, I’m trying to see which ships they encountered, if were was the ships looking for the ARA San Luis or if was the Invincible group, that was to the north of the islands and very close to the route of the bombers. The planes were arriving from the north- northwest, from Trelew and Nogueira told he saw missiles fired towards him from the front of a ship (possibly a Sea Dart from a Type 42 or a Sea Wolf almost out of range from a type 22). I don’t think they hit the water, as the wing damaged was the one that was higher on his turn. Sadly there are no photos about this damage. I think it was a Sea Dart, as the Sea Wolf was first fired on May 12th and was very accurate, the Sea Dart only hit the target in the cases when the target didn’t see the missile before impact (example: the Learjet T-24 or Canberra B-108).
santiagorivasHi, as Creaking door says, the T-24 was of the FAA and belonged to the II Brigada Aérea of Paraná. Anyway, the Learjets operated together with the civilian planes of the Escuadrón Fénix on reconnaissance and diversion missions, but as far as I know, the civilian planes never flew over the islands, only until reaching the west coast and then returning. The Mistubishi MU-2s were also used to support the Pucará planes deployed to the islands, due to better navigation equipment. Also BAe 125 LV-ALW was used to support the Canberras who attacked the Hercules tanker on June 8th.
The civil helicopters, although initially pressed into Escuadrón Fénix, were used under the command of the different Armed Forces for SAR missions from the mainland.
On the flight in which T-24 was shot down, the plan was not to fly so close to the British warships, they had to return before they did, but they continued flying closer to the islands until they saw the missiles coming.
Bets regards
Santiago
santiagorivasThanks a lot for the info. I readed this on International Air Power Review Vol 1, but I have some doubts about this, as I never seen this info in any other place, nor pictures of them.
All the best
Santiago
santiagorivasDear Steve, don’t hesitate to contact me of PM. The article on Wings of Fame was written with me together with Juan Carlos Cicalesi and Salvador Mafe Huertas in 1999. This month a new version is going to be published on Brazilian magazine Asas.
Best regards
Santiago
santiagorivasHi guys, although I’m not a veteran of the conflict, I investigated a lot about it as an aviation researcher from Argentina and since I arrive to this forum some days ago I followed this thread, which is very interesting. I see Mr. Griffiths’ stories of too much interest, as from all the other participants. I had the pleasure to interview Pastrán in 1999 for an article about the Canberra. He was an excellent guy and when he told me the story of this last mission he was almost crying, remembering how his best friend died. He told me he felt the missile hit the bomb bay and that maybe damaged Casado’s seat. He waited for him, but when he was at 10,000 feet he said to Casado: “I have to leave you”, and then he ejected.
I also interviewed Nogueira, who also passed away some time ago. He doesn’t talked too much but he told me about that missile that almost destroys his plane. He described almost the same that was posted here, that he saw the missiles and started to turn, when he heard an explosion and saw that his wingtip was severely damaged. First he decided to try to land at BAM Malvinas, because he thought his wouldn’t be able to fly to Trelew. Then he saw that handling was still good and returned with the other planes.
Now I’m arranging a new meeting with Comodoro Vivas, who was also a Canberra pilot during the war. I’m in contact with him because he is writing the official story of the FAA’s attack planes through history and I’m helping him. In the last meeting we talked briefly about the war, as we talked more on Avro Lincolns and Lancasters.
He has a lot of knowledge about the Chaff/ flare dispensers done during the war for the Canberras and Learjets. The chaff were made cutting aluminium plates with a spaghetti machine.
I’m also in contact with Brigadier Chevallier, who also was a Canberra pilot on the war, but now he is the Joint Chieff of Staff of the Armed Forces and is very difficult to ask him for time to talk about the Canberras. He really loved the plane and was responsible for extending the life of the planes from 1998 to 2000.
Here I also add a picture taken by me on March 15th, 1999, during the withdrawal ceremony of the old A-4B and A-4C Skyhawks. On that day I flew on Learjet serial T-22 with the two Canberras, B-101 and B-109. This was almost the last flight of the Canberras, the Learjet and me, as we were very close for a collision minutes before the flypast, when we went down with the Learjet and reduced power, but the pilot didn’t advice the Canberra pilots.
I hope I can help you with the information I have about the conflict. I’m very interested on the British points of view and experiences. Also the information posted by Rey del Castillo and the other guys from my country is very interesting for me.
Best regards
Santiago Rivas
santiagorivasHi guys, although I’m not a veteran of the conflict, I investigated a lot about it as an aviation researcher from Argentina and since I arrive to this forum some days ago I followed this thread, which is very interesting. I see Mr. Griffiths’ stories of too much interest, as from all the other participants. I had the pleasure to interview Pastrán in 1999 for an article about the Canberra. He was an excellent guy and when he told me the story of this last mission he was almost crying, remembering how his best friend died. He told me he felt the missile hit the bomb bay and that maybe damaged Casado’s seat. He waited for him, but when he was at 10,000 feet he said to Casado: “I have to leave you”, and then he ejected.
I also interviewed Nogueira, who also passed away some time ago. He doesn’t talked too much but he told me about that missile that almost destroys his plane. He described almost the same that was posted here, that he saw the missiles and started to turn, when he heard an explosion and saw that his wingtip was severely damaged. First he decided to try to land at BAM Malvinas, because he thought his wouldn’t be able to fly to Trelew. Then he saw that handling was still good and returned with the other planes.
Now I’m arranging a new meeting with Comodoro Vivas, who was also a Canberra pilot during the war. I’m in contact with him because he is writing the official story of the FAA’s attack planes through history and I’m helping him. In the last meeting we talked briefly about the war, as we talked more on Avro Lincolns and Lancasters.
He has a lot of knowledge about the Chaff/ flare dispensers done during the war for the Canberras and Learjets. The chaff were made cutting aluminium plates with a spaghetti machine.
I’m also in contact with Brigadier Chevallier, who also was a Canberra pilot on the war, but now he is the Joint Chieff of Staff of the Armed Forces and is very difficult to ask him for time to talk about the Canberras. He really loved the plane and was responsible for extending the life of the planes from 1998 to 2000.
santiagorivasHi guys, does anybody knows if the PLAAF have Bell 214 in service or any other version of the Huey helicopter? I read this some time ago but I’m not sure if this is true. I’m very interested as I’m following the story of the Huey in all its variants.
I will preciate any help.
Bets regards
Santiago
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