TinWingThe MacNamara shouldnt be blamed for a technical failures.
You still won’t admit that the YF-12 succeeding in all of its flight and firing trials?
TinWingThe best link I have seen is the Sinodefence one which is in English Im afraid.
The type 730 is very similar (almost a copy) of the Goalkeeper with a single 7 barrel 30mm cannon.
Does the Chinese Type 730 fire Russian or Oerlikon/GAU-8 type ammunition?
TinWingTinwing: have you got a picture of the Samos/Satan, the only picture of it I have seen could well have been of an early Goalkeeper, just mislabelled, if not, it seemed very similar.
As for separation of gun and sensor, that is exactly how the Millenium gun works – it only weighs in at about 3.5tons, despite being a 35mm gun, largely due to having offboard sensors. I think the suggestion was that you could fit future combattants with one or two fire control radars in total, to control multiple RAM and Millenium gun systems.
There are pictures of both the Samos gun and the Satan fire control director in this old CIWS thread:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44411&page=2&pp=30&highlight=SAMOS+sataN
Notice the electro-optical sensor on top of the Samos gun and the Mistral SAMs?
TinWingThe Government has acknoledged that the navy’s fleet of ageing Westland Seaking Mk.50’s is of a paramount nature.
Funds are being sort for a sizable replacement in the 06/07 budget but questions are arrising as to how long a replacement is going to take to get into service.
If the helos (naval veriants of the MRH-90 already on order for the army) were ordered in this budget, we would not see an in service date for at least four years. The earliest we’d be looking at is 2011 for the Seaking fleet to finally be paid off.
Many are calling the decission to buy the army’s 12 examples a joke while the navy are waiting to fall out of the sky in their work horses. The army doesn’t really need the 12 new helo’s that soon as the Blackhawks are still fit for service. So why is it taking so long for the navy to get their machines?
Under Air 9000 Phase 4 and phase 6, the ADF will replace both the Blackhawks of the army and the Seakings of the navy respectivly. Questions are starting to be asked as to why these two requirements can’t be combined for a one hit solution.
Australia’s helicopter procurement policy is a mess. Too many new types have been selected, and logistics will prove to be a nightmare. I still can’t figure out why the profoundly expensive NH-90 was chosen, when Australia already operates a relatively large S-70 fleet. Why was the SH-2G chosen when there were enough extra naval S-70s for half of the Anzac-class? Then of course, you really have to wonder why the incredibly expensive Eurocopter Tiger deal was made?
Further adding to the Air 9000 deal, more CH-47’s may be aquired in light of the recent Airlift across the board review for the ADF. The current fleet of six CH-47D which are about to be upgraded, is being viewed as being too small for our needs and it is with great haste that a report is being put together for recommendation to the government.
It must be noted that any new Chinooks bought will not be of the same standard as those currently in service as we have rather old models now, even with the upgrade being done the D model has long been surpassed by the F and G models. Thus remains the question as to wether the ADF will buy old examples or new ones and have the old ones upgraded to a similar standard.
With the U.S. commitment to the CH-53K program, perhaps Australia should start considering a heavylift replacement for its small CH-47D fleet.
Of course, it is questionable whether the CH-53K will be compatible with either the French or Spanish LHD designs that have been downselected.
What isn’t in doubt is that the CH-47 is most definitely not a naval helicopter.
TinWingIn fact, take a look for Samos and Satan, they were French projects for a CIWS, very similar to the Goalkeeper, but they never entered production. It used the GAU-8 30mm cannon, but apparently the French did not seem keen on using an American system, and French industry was pushing Mistral missile mounts, like the Sadral etc quite hard. They presumably decided that buying an almost off the shelf domestic system was more attractive than developing a complex new CIWS using foreign technology.
Samos/Satan was entirely different in concept from Goalkeeper – despite the shared gun mounting.
Phalanx and Goalkeeper type CIWS systems integrate the sensor and firecontrol systems into the gun mounting. This makes the system easier and cheaper to retrofit into existing ships.
The French attempted to separate the sensors from the actual gun mounting. There is some indication that the U.S. Navy was thinking along the same lines. The primary advantage is that multiple gun mounts can be controled by the same sensor/fire control package. This decreased redundacy and lowered the overall cost of procurement – at least in theory.
In reality, Samos/Satan would have been far more difficult and expensive to retrofit than Goalkeeper.
TinWingCome on, Tin Wing. The bombs were introduced on F-14D too late to save it from retirement.
The F-14 Tomcat’s retirement was directly connected with the limited production run of the definitive F-14D. Only 37 newbuilt and 18 converted F-14Ds were produced. The original plan had been to built at least 300 F-14Ds with a production run terminating sometime after 1998!
Needless to say, it is impossible to provide 10 or 11 squadrons from an original fleet of 55 airframes. It should be equally apparent that the TF-30 engined F-14As were well overdue for retirement, and the reengined F-14Bs were converted in far too few numbers, and were limited by their early 70s avionics. The F-14D simply couldn’t continue in service in such small numbers, which is precisely why it was retired so soon after the F-14A/B.
The truth is that the Tomcat production was cancelled in favor of a slew of programs that were later cancelled themselves. The Navy opted for the NATF and finally the A/FX before settling for the F/A-18E/F……..
TinWingon a Il-76 airframe?
This should be a insert from some commercial chinese magazine so I would rather doubt the authenticity of the aircraft in question.
If indeed this is a true design kept hidden from us then PLAAF has been doing a better job than it has done with the KJ-2000 and all other varients of Y-8 AEW…
Don’t take me literally.
However, the British did apparently sell a couple of AEW radars to the Chinese, who integrated them with the Y-12- not the Il-76. The radar in question was indeed “half” of the
Some say that the Y-12 with the projecting nose radome is an AEW testbed, some say its an MPA. Either way, the nose radome doesn’t have a 360 degree scanning capability, but neither did the failed Nimrod AEW – or the Chilean-purchased Phalcon AEW.
In any event, Deino’s drawing does show the forward radome of the Nimrod AEW grafted onto an Il-76.
TinWingIt is hardly painful for the Indians, as much as it wounds your feelings. Our sympathies and some easily proffered balm for your sore spots..
Wisepanda,
Please let our “guest” from the North, be. His splendiferous noxious emissions are a sight to behold, even as they create large clouds of gobbledegook, as he strains to be sarcastic yet not give his game away, lest he be spanked by the powers that be. I hope I have managed to use as much verbiage as he does!
Funny thing this half baked nationalism, which rests solely on imagined prowess, without one clear categorical statement, from the powers that be, but is backed nevertheless by feats of analysis with “speculative pictures” and “leaks”. Whereupon the strained individuals, panting with excitement dash over to tell the other folks what successes they have garnered in comparison…because…because…one analyzed picture says so! :rolleyes:
What sort of “half baked nationalism” are you talking about? Do you even know my nationality?
The poor fellow, strained as he is, is quoting one report in the Hindu, without knowing that Shri. S R Valluri who kickstarted the LCA program has written much about Dassaults unwillingness to share technology, as was written by veterans on the other board.
Dassault was more than willing to share technology with India. The problems was that India was unwilling to pay.
The highly bureaucratic India defense procurement establishment is notoriously difficult to deal with – something that is demonstrated by the long suffering saga of the BAE Systems Hawk deal, or the recently announced end to Mirage 2000 production.
TinWing> and partnership in the Rafale
that is news to me. care to back that up with any sources ? also does this “partnership” mean licensed production OR transfer of dassault scientists and french research labs to indian citizenship ? without the people, the research infra and the tons of secret test data all this “partnership” and “transfer of tech” talk is just hogwash. nobody will teach anyone the secrets of making a 4th gen plane. nobody kills their cash cow.
It is common knowledge that the LCA began as a canard delta, using a configuration that was promoted by BAe in the early 1980s. The overtures from Dassault came a few years later. There is some reason to believe that the current configuration of the LCA came from collaboration with Dassault. At the same time, Dassault offered licensed production of the Mirage 2000 and partnership in the Rafale – which only existed as the Rafale A technology demonstrator at that point.
FYI, the other prototypes have gone supersonic years ago.
Only 8 years late by the ADA’s own timeline.
TinWingThey actually tried to make a combat aircraft of a Blackbird, but they encountered unsolvable problems.
The only “unsolvable problems” stemmed from the policies of the MacNamara era. In the run up to Vietnam, the tactical TFX took priority over the strategic YF-12 bomber derivatives.
TinWingOf course, but both were experimental and underdeveloped aircraft.
Remember that XB-70 no1 has been banned to fly at more than 2,5 mach, after a few excursions to 3 mach.
No.2 crashed after a few flights, so we can not tell how it could have behaved anyway.
It is known that engine unstarts, for example, has never been solved, etc, etc.The same is true for YF-12. The unstarts, radome melting, radar thermal protection, painstakingly slow descent rates, total lack of maneuverability, etc, are only some of its problems.
You are distorting the facts, yet again.
The XB-70 had a troublesome test program. One unit was lost to a collision with a chase plane and another started loosing bits and pieces during high speed trials. Of course, the XB-70 had been gradually reduced from a production bomber program to research program – a decision which proved to be entirely correct.
The YF-12 was altogether more successful. Lockheed succeeded with a small scale program where North American/Rockwell, with a far larger investment, failed. By any measure, the YF-12 succeeded in both firing and performance trials.
Of course, you failed to mention that the YF-12 interceptor was made redundant by the total lack of a credible Soviet bomber threat. In the end, it was the failure of the Soviet aviation industry that killed the YF-12.
TinWingSferrin, it was a vain attempt to prolong its service life by making of it a more useful machine.
I honestly don’t know why you’re keeping this thread going with erroneous statements.
The F-14 was designed from day one to have the ability to carry iron bombs, despite its role as a fleet air defense fighter. The integration of PGM capability and air-to-ground service trials might not have started in earnest until the run down of the Intruder fleet, but the Tomcat was never inherently limited to a single role by design.
TinWingAny idea what’s that Il-76 version … found at the CDF (via Xinhui) ?????
Cheers, Deino :confused:
It is precisely half of a Nimrod AEW. It turns out that the Nimrod AEW’s fore and aft arrays didn’t work very well simultaneously……
TinWingso what ?
Going supersonic during a first flight is a sign of confidence- and something of a Dassault tradition.
There also is the painful fact that India declined licensed production of the Mirage 2000, and partnership in the Rafale, in favor of the LCA program……..over 20 years ago.
It is wonderful news that the LCA has gone supersonic, especially if the year was 1996.
TinWingHAL to go into supersonic mode 🙂
Monday May 15 2006 00:00 IST
BANGALORE: Five years after the first indigenous developmental fighter took to the air after complaints of time and technology gaps, the defence PSU – Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) – has now decided to go into supersonic mode.HAL chairman Ashok Baweja told this website’s newspaper that the fifth prototype vehicle, trainer and the first of the eight Limited Series Production (LSP) will join the programme this year. These aircraft will help accelerate the initial operational clearance for the LCA.
On Saturday, PV2, among a cluster of four jets built, turned supersonic with air-to-air missiles on board. Scientists of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said it was a big leap forward in the project as the jet was now propelled into operational test light mode.
‘‘As for the LCA project, it is a war-room like situation at HAL. I am getting daily inputs from officers on the progress made in the project,’’ the HAL chief said.
HAL has now taken up the challenge to complete the eight LSPs and 20 more aircraft within three years. The IAF will induct these delta-winged world’s lightest fighter aircraft by 2010 to replace its ageing fleet of MiGs.
The PSU’s focus now is on stepping up the pressure on this strategically important project to ensure that there are no further delays. Three more aircraft, which will join the test flying envelope later this year, will increase the number of aircraft used for certification.
In all, four LCAs, two technology demonstrators and two prototypes had logged over 525 flights.
Not just HAL, but even the ADA has accelerated the programme to the next level by putting a radar on the aircraft and is taking up a weaponisation programme by fitting pylons on the PV2.
The PV2 is a much lighter aircraft and possesses advanced software technology, unlike the Test Demonstrator I, II and PV1. There is a quantum jump in the build standard of PV2, which is a software intensive fourth generation combat aircraft built to production standard. Besides having a high percentage of composite materials in its airframe structure, it incorporates a state-of-the-art, integrated, modular avionics system with open architecture concepts to facilitate easy hardware and software upgrades and re-usability.
The avionics system of Tejas PV II provides excellent pilot vehicle interface in a glass cockpit which has an all-round panoramic view to reduce the pilot’s workload and to increase situational awareness.
http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IE120060514131438&Title=Bangalore&Topic=0
The first Mirage 2000 – like most Dassault fighters – went supersonic during its first flight.
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