Mike J:

There are Bristol Fighters with the RAF Museum, Hendon and a second example with Peter Jackson, both based on ex-Weston on the Green fuselage frames.

The final ex-WotG one is in the US. http://www.vintageaviation.org/aircr…lF2/index.html

Total of 6 WotG frames, as follows

Peter Jackson, NZ (ex-TFC) – airworthy
Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe (ex-HFC, formerly airworthy, now unfortunately dead. )
RAF Museum, Hendon
VAF, Old Kingsbury, Texas, USA
Brussels Aviation Museum
Peter Jackson, NZ – project

Thanks Mike – very interesting and a lot of useful stuff there, after originally including it, I knocked out E2466 at the RAFM, Hendon as the RAF Museum website describes it as “Reproduction aircraft using some contemporary components” (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft_search_result.cfm?txtSearch=F2B&btnSubmit=Search), hence I knocked it out. (I can recall seeing a Brisfit frame in an upstairs display of (I think) a repair unit when I visited Hendon on school trip in 1973 – is it this one?)

However, there may be a need for consistency here given that we have other ex-Weston-on-the Green Brisfits in the list, so I am inclined to stick it back in any again and add in the others that I missed. But before I do this are some of these frames more equal than others?

Clearly there is a philosopical issue that we have been touching the edge of through this thread – what constitutes a survivior? While the trite answer is a continuous history, as anyone who follows this forum knows at times this can be a grey concept – how much of a plane of this era needs to survive for it to be a survivor? How much difference is there between an almost total rebuild and an exact replica incorporting original components?. The debate about the RAFM BE2c nicely encapsulated this point. Should rescuing an unidentified frame from a barn roof and rebuilding everything else around itreally count as having a contiunous history?

Beyond this, of course are degrees of origanality – maybe we should specifically identify aircraft that have not been pulled apart since the era, any agreement/disagreement/ideas for candidates?

On reflection I think that I have also probably missed off some DH9s in the US?

Anyway I will update the list to reflect all corrections received (thanks again Jeepman) and post it up again on Monday night – so please keep your corrections coming.

Latest Composite List

Herewith as promised is an updated composite list, which includes the first effort at the Avro 504 and Sopwith Pup. The Hendon BE2c is described on the musuems official website as a reproduction using some original components (listed) see: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft_search_result.cfm?txtSearch=BE2&btnSubmit=Search, so I have not therefore included it. I think that the suggestions of adding Spads, etc are excellent. However, I am a bit concerned about the list becoming too unwieldy and suggest that we should keep the present list for British designed aircraft only. If we reach the end of this road and still have any steam left I suggest that we start a new thread for each new nationality.

Avro 504

ex-504J
B3182 Weeks Air Museum, Miami

504K
E448 Aviation Museum of Central Finland
E449 RAFM Hendon
H2453 RCAF???
H2174 Power House Museum, Sydney, Australia (modified)
H2311 Museum of Science and Industry, Manchester
H5199 Shuttleworth Collection, Old Warden
D7560 Science Museum, London
D7520 Museum of Army Flying, Middle Wallop
D8971 RCAF???
D-9029 NMUSAF, Dayton, Ohio
‘ZK-ACU’ Stuart Tantrum, Blenheim, New Zealand
????? Norwegian Aviation Centre, Bødo

BE2

BE2c
2699 IWM Lambeth
5878 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe

BE2e
9969 Le Bourget, Paris
A1325 Peter Jackson, New Zealand
F1380 Gardermoen Museum, Nr Oslo
(Possible second New Zealand aircraft – to be deleted if nobody come forward with evidence to support its existence)

SE5

SE5A
C1916 Canberra, ACT, Australia.
F904 Shuttleworth Collection, Old Warden
F937/’F-939′ Science Museum, London
F938 RAFM Hendon
F7781/F7783 National Museum of Military History, South Africa

SE5E (Eberhart):
“G-BLXT” (original identity?) Flying A services/Wizzard Investments, Greenham Common
“AS-22-325 NMUSAF, Dayton, Ohio

Sopwith Pup

Fully Original:
N5195 Museum of Army Flying, Middle Wallop

Converted Dove:
9971 Shuttleworth Collection, Old Warden

Sopwith Camel

F1:
B5747 Brussels Air Museum
F6314 RAFM Hendon
B6291 Al Letcher, Mojave, California
B7280 Krakow (incomplete)
“N6254” D&R Holbert, Aerospace, Little Rock, Arkansas

2F1:
N6812 IWM Lambeth
N8156 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe

Sopwith Snipe

E6938 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe
E8102 Canadian War Museum, Ottawa (Fuselage only)
E8105 NASM, Smithsonian, Washington

Bristol F2B

D7889 Sold by HFC Duxford to Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe
D8084 Peter Jackson, New Zealand
D8096 Shuttleworth Collection, Old Warden
E2466 RAFM, Hendon
E2581 IWM, Duxford
????? Brussels Aviation Museum
“AB21” At Museo del Aire, Madrid

Corrections, comments, complaints please!

Brisfit & Sopwith Snipe Added

I have spent some time tidying up yesterday’s composite list, making it more consistent and going through everyones comments to pick up everything that I could. I have also now added “starter for ten lists” for the Brisfit and for my favourite the Sopwith Snipe (the Bentley BR2 engine is such a work of beauty), what a pity we dont have one over here, especially as when I visited the Smithsonian nearly seven years ago thiers seems so under-appreciated, the “display” having the appearnce of being stuck up on a shelf over a door.

BE2

BE2c
2699 IWM Lambeth
5878 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe

BE2e
9969 Le Bourget, Paris, France
A1325 Peter Jackson, New Zealand
Identity?? New Zealand

SE5

SE5A
C1916 Canberra, ACT, Australia.
F904 Shuttleworth Collection, Old Warden
F937/’F-939′ Science Museum London
F938 RAFM Hendon
F7781/F7783 National Museum of Military History, South Africa

SE5E (Eberhart):
“G-BLXT” (original identity?) Flying A services/Wizzard Investments, Greenham Common
“AS-22-325 NMUSAF, Dayton, Ohio

Sopwith Camel

F1:
B5747 Brussels Air Museum
F6314 RAFM Hendon
B6291 Al Letcher, Mojave, California
B7270 Missing – ex Boise, Idaho
B7280 Krakow
“N6254” D&R Holbert, Aerospace, Little Rock, Arkansas

2F1:
N6812 IWM Lambeth
N8156 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe

Sopwith Snipe

E6938 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe
E8102 Canadian War Museum, Ottawa (Fuselage only)
E8105 NASM, Smithsonian, Washington

Bristol F2B

D7889 Sold by HFC Duxford to Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe
D8084 Peter Jackson, New Zealand
D8096 Shuttleworth Collection, Old Warden
E2466 RAFM, Hendon
E2581 IWM, Duxford
????? Brussels Aviation Museum
“AB21” At Museo del Aire, Madrid

Corrections please?

Thanks very much Jeepman and Baldeagle. You have sorted the confusion in my mind. Sounds like I need to buy some more books (not that the wife will like it as I already have well over a thousand, albeit more on Southern Railway subjects than anything else – the only saving grace is that she has a similar number – only the loos in our house don’t have bookcases or bookshelves in them and there are still other books in piles scattered around!).

From the above we now have the following composite list of survivors for teh SE5A and the Camel:

SE5A

C1916 Canberra, ACT, Australia.
F904 Shuttleworth
F937 ‘F-939’ Science Museum London
F938 RAFM Hendon
G-BLXT (original identity?) Flying A services/Wizzard Investments, Greenham Common

Sopwith Camel

F1:
F6314 RAFM Hendon
B6291 Al Letcher, Mojave, California
B5747 Brussels Air Museum
B7280 Krakow
N6254 (USCAR Reg – true identity reportedly lost) (listed by Ogden as being in Little Rock, Arkansas marked as B7270)

2F1:
N6812 IWM Lambeth
N8156 Canadian Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe

Is there any interest to continue this thread to provide a comprehensive list of some of the other famous planes of WW1? If so I will be pleased to put up some initial, and doubtless inaccurate lists, to be shot down “as a starter for ten”.

Amamzingly there is still one of these amazing subs in exsistance and they were a pattern for all non nuclear boats to come.

I don’t think that they were all that were cracked up to be, I believe that whilst the concept was a quantum leap forward the execution was somewhat rushed and botched – which explains why so many were built but only one started a war patrol. I believe that the build quality left a lot to be desired with much dodgy welding and funamental design defects like control lines and pipes running outside the pressure hull…

Add to that the inexperience and poor quality of the U-boat crew pool after all the losses; the huge advances that were being made by the allies at the time in ASDIC/Sonar technology; in anti-submarine weapons systems (e.g. Squid which even in its limited use by the RN at the end of the war had a 40% average kill rate per attack, compared with the best overall RN average for depth charges of 9%, even with improved ASDIC/Sonar); the vastly increase in the number, quality and training of escort vessels; a nearly adequate Coastal Command size at last; improved Coatal Command equipment and the loss by the U-Boats of the Atlantic bases; and the prospects for U-boats in 1946 are not all that U-boat fanatacists claim… (shades of 1918 in 1945 by the U-boat diehards?)

But I think that we are straying somewhat from the proper content of an aviation forum!

I wonder if anyone can help me with Sopwith Camel survivors – I was researching the information on the Internet a few months ago and I got rather confused. Amazingly I found that not all of the information on the Internet is accurate and, believe it or not, some of it is actually contradictory!

If I recall correctly the best that I could do was:

Camel F1:
[INDENT]F6314 – RAFM – Hendon
N7157Q – C Palin, US
? – Krakow
A5658 – US National Museum of Naval Aviation [/INDENT]

Camel 2F1:
[INDENT]N6812 – IWM
N8156 – Canadian Aviation Museum[/INDENT]

Can anyone provide a complete list?

For all those who think that this seller has not got a leg to stand on I have been doing some research and have found that this control column actually comes from the very rare Sopwith Cabriole, famed for its its ‘ball and claw’ control column.

Although I personally still think that this seller would be well advised to leg it and still think that it is at the foot of my Christmas list.

Robert