star49hmm, the rif-m system that China got for 051C does not have anti-missile capability. I wouldn’t be so confident about it engaging SM-2.
what has export rif-m systm to China has anything to do with russian navy just like S-300PMU-2 to S-300PS/S-400. there is generation gap in software alone.
star49For self-protection,that’s enough. Of course, an electronic attack plane can have more. F 18G can have up to 5 external jammers.
Internal is not enough in high threat environment. Su-30 has more usefull external stations for balance load out of jammers and weopons.
Yeas, sure…the first to be consummed is the fuel from the external tanks. So even if the Su refuse to fight and the F 16 already dropped the tanks, it won’t leave this one without fuel.
F-16 with external fuel tanks will be without usefull BVR load and external jammers. F-16 can only fire the first shot. nothing left for second volley Su can turn around faster because of TVC and has still BVR weopons left for second attack. Su-35 takes this to whole different level because of 14 weopon stations and 1900 km combat radius with 4 AAM. u have F-18 weight class fighter with F-22 class nonafterburning engines with full FBW control 3D TVC. it gives enough agility to dodge first BVR shots and give two times BVR shots in return because of extensive weopon stations and attack on informatio systems.
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/military/SU-35.wbp
The Su-35 merits are the following:
Supreme flight performance, superagility mode
Long range information targeting system
Wow!!! Is there a Russian system that can detect a missile at 30 km by its plume????
why it shouldnt be Russian???
What? A Su would be limitted at ~ 7G in these conditions… something like avoiding a straight flight and outflank the bad guy in order to stay out of radar cone? I meant the most expensive items in terms of avionics.0.8M, 6 AAMs, 30,000 feet…
Su with TVC at 7G is alot better and bigger fighter has larger radar FOV. u havent put the top speed of F-16 with external tanks and BVR load out. that is key difference.
star49No one need internal and external jammers. Either one is enough.
surely so u know more than Sukhoi.
Don’t make me repeat myself. At the smallest sign that a dogfight will occur, the tanks are dropped.???
what if Su-30 refues to dog fight accur:diablo: u will lose all the external fuel and later Su-30 can turn around and make short work of F-16.
That’s true with semi-active missiles.
The AMRAAM radar will start emitting in the last few km(albeit it can aquire its target at ~ 20 km). The trick is to delay the moment the radar goes active, to negate the enemmy evasive actions.
how do u figure out that it is for semi-active missiles and is only related to seeker becoming active?. they can even refer to exhaust of missile which is more likely because of 30km range.
:p :p :p 650 knots at 20,000 feets:diablo:.
very low height and speed.
Really? A decent RWR will detect a radar 150 km if this radar can detect a target at 100 km. In F 22 the most expenive item is not the radar, but the ALR 94 EW suite.
so what can u do at 150km. in F-22 the expensive part is the airframe and than the engines.
As i said the f 16 is designed to fly with bags. This will allow a combat radius of ~ 650Nmiles in AA. It’s less that the ~ 750 Nmiles of the Flanker familis, but not by much.
combat radius of 650nm at what speed, weopons, height etc.
star49The f 16 was designed with limited internal fuel, in order to reduce weigh/size. The external bags compensate and are dropped at the smallest chance to engage in dogfight. As fer limmited weapons, 6 AAMs is quite enough. By the way, there are score of F 16s with internal jammers (Greek, Polish, Chilean, Omani, UAE,…)
external bags takes away stations from weopons and external EW pods. and u need both internal and exteranl jammers for extra protection. Su-30 has more balance loads out which gives it enormous flexibility not to mention air refuelling further away from battlefied.
And a WWI Foker Dreideker can turnaround in 3 sec…at 100 km/h, so what the point? Where the F 16 really shines is in sustained turn.
F-16 cannot compete with TVC equiped fighter under real weopons conditions with external fuel tanks.
BS! a chase engagement refers to the situation where the target is flying away from the attacker from the missile launch; in this situation, it’s true that the effective range will be drastically reduced. A tight turn in the terminal phase (when the Su RWR is triggered by the missile radar) will not make a Slammer to loose the target.
MIG-35 EW system can detect air to air missile from 30 km. Su-30 should be similar. that is enough to turn around from TVC equiped fighter with enough speed.
If an ALQ *** (put whatever you want) could effectively jam a ground radar (hundreds of kWs) it will be a joke to jam an airborne radar (5-10 kW).
may be of older generation ground radar. u cannot do that with decent airforce who knows all the ins and outs.
Not to forget that a “bigger’ radar will make the day for an sophisticated RWR. I would like to add that an F 16 in the configuration Schorsch mentioned (without the tanks, but with an ext. jammer and a targeting pod) can sustain 9G with full intrenal fuel…something a Flanker can’t.
u have to show me maximum speed that F-16 can achieve and at what height with external weopons to fire BVR missile at maximum potential. bigger radar is better for better situational awarness. enemy RWR is irrelevant as they cant anything at those ranges.
Of course the Su 30 is more maneuvrable, but as I said the 9X will level the chances.
first u have to get into situation where u can fire AIM-9X. when u run out of gas in BVR fight there is little left for wvr fight. there is reason that future Su-35 has even more range on internal fuel, external and internal jammers and FBW 3D TVC for super super maneurablity. it directly came from Su-30 experaince.
star49An F 16 can stay longer in the air than an F 15. ???
with external tanks?? and limited weopons and external EW pods.
The F 16 can accelerate too in order to launch a missile farther; in fact it accelerates better than an Su 30. It accelerate better than anything in USAF, except the F 22.
yes F-16 can accelerate but point is when to accelerate.;) MKI can trunaround in 6 seconds in that case F-16 BVR missile will lose its range potentail due to tail chase engagement. simple Su-30 has bigger radar less prone to jamming, external ew pods and lots of weopons. can be refuelled further from battlefield . A well trained airforce should be able to exploit all those advantages.
star49I doubt lower Oil prices of 80s can be repeated. China/Russia/India alone are putting more than 10 million vehicles on road every year. the same is true for countries like Korea/vietnam. and than add to that booming airline industry and international shipping due to increase trade/outsourcing. Oil embargo will just raise the price and same will be available through blackmarket thorough turkey/central asia etc.
star49I think that an F 16 with JHMCS/AIM 9X can fight on equal terms too a Su 30, except high altitudes. In Cope India 2005 there were 2 “dogfights” between these planes, and in one of them, the F 16 won.
F-16 will run out of gas dog fighting Su-30. Su-30 can give BVR missile higher energy and can dictate wvr fight on its terms.
star49Not really- this is a project to field a workable system.
every project is towards workable system.
Will only be revealed once the project reaches critical mass.
so undetermined date?
Get off the jargon horse, complete your basic undergrad and acquire some basic grounding in reality. India & several other countries use COTS as necessary and are well aware of its pros and cons. :rolleyes:
so if India is so good in COTS why not supply components to Zhuk-ME or for Seeker of R-77 upgrade and want TOT for every foreign project.
design of components is totally separate thing from manufacturing process with advance lithiography equipment. Intel can design chips but not fab equipment. there is limit of fabless semiconductor to give to commercial vendors.
star49some more about MIG-35
http://www.vpk-news.ru/article.asp?pr_sign=archive.2007.173.articles.army_01
According to the first assistant to the general designer – approximately in one and a half time it is more than main designer of corporation ” Phasotron-¡¿¿Ó ” Jury Guskova, range of action “Bug-áÝ”, than a usual locator. Y.Guskov has added, that range of action makes ” about 150 km, and can be much more “. РЛС works in a three-centimetric range and provides a deviation(rejection) of a beam in a range + /-60 degrees. Owing to speed of a radar with АФАР constant support of the purpose even is provided at outstanding maneuverable characteristics МиГ-35. Electronic scanning allows to provide simultaneously a mode “air-air” and “air-surface”, to work with the group and single purposes, to define(determine) their type and a class. “Bug-áÝ” automatically puts on support all the found out purposes, and then ranges them, selecting the most dangerous.
РЛС with АФАР it will be much more reliable than radars of a traditional design as failure up to 10 % of приемо-transferring modules (ППМ) does not lead to refusal of all radar, that is to the termination(discontinuance) of its(his) functions. In an antenna lattice of “Bug-áÝ” shown in Bangalore is available 680 ППМ, grouped in assembly on 4 elements. In the further on serial samples diameter of an antenna lattice will be increased also quantity(amount) ППМ will increase up to 1064.
Indian debut МиГ-35.
Ilya’s КЕДРОВА photoIt is important to note, that “Bug-¼Ý” completely consists of the Russian elements. As a whole АФАР it is made on “Phasotron”. In manufacture ППМ is engaged НПФ “Микран”, and – monolithic integrated schemes(plans) – make a basic element of the приемо-transferring module in scientific research institute of semi-conductor devices. Both these enterprises are located in Tomsk. The first sample “Bug-áÝ” is made of serial blocks of the radars created earlier on traditional technology. In particular, in its(his) design are used the computing system in structure of the processor of data and the alarm processor, the setting generator with the synchronizer, the receiver. In the further it is planned to establish(install) the new computing system, and also the broadband and multipurpose setting generator. It will allow to reduce length РЛС and to place on the released(exempted) place additional plane systems.
One more “highlight” МиГ-35 is new оптико-локационная the station (ОЛС), developed in scientific research institute of precision instrument making – earlier this research-and-production organization worked basically in interests of space branch. ОЛС incorporates the forward and bottom stations working on the average infra-red and videoranges, and also carrying out functions of a laser range finder which can work and for illumination of the purposes at prompting the weapon. In a forward hemisphere the system works in a range +/-90 degrees on a corner of an azimuth and from-15 up to +60 degrees on height, and bottom optical “sphere” serves all bottom hemisphere. Range of detection of the purposes forward station makes 15 km, the bottom station – up to 45 km (ОЛС distinguishes(recognizes) the tank on distance up to 20 km, the ship – up to 40 km).
РЛС, ОЛС and the special gauges established(installed) on законцовках of wings МиГ-35, are incorporated in a unique complex of defense. All these systems fix start-up of rockets and define(determine), whether the rocket in the plane is aimed. Then the trajectory and range of means of defeat, type of prompting of rockets is defined(determined). Also the irradiation of the plane is caught by a laser beam. By results of gathering and processing of the information the command(team) on shooting of traps or statement of handicapes stands out, and to the pilot the vector direction for evasion from attack is given. The complex of defense finds out start-up of rockets “air-air” on range up to 30 km, rockets “ground-air” – up to 50 km, ПЗРК – up to 10 km. Detection of rockets dangerous to the plane is carried out on distance not less than 4 km. The laser irradiation “is marked” on range up to 30 km.
МиГ-35 It is offered on export with a standard set of aviation means of defeat. However for interior Aero India 2007 developers of the plane have reserved also a novelty – for “work” by the ground the cruise missile of distant radius of action with an active head of homing 3М14-АЭ, development Ekaterinburg ОКБ “Innovator” now is offered.
star49AFAIK star49 there is active research in FBO too (Fly by optics) to replace (FBW).
Kindly refer to harry’s article on Tejas about it though at this point it isnt clear if FBO will come in any variant of Tejas (N-LCA?) – maybe.
here is something more clear,
http://www.drdo.com/boards/ardb/aircraft_system_panel_projects_4.htm
Design and development of fibre optic sensors. Prof. A K Mallick IIT, Kharagpur
Development of compatible digital fibre optic data bus -A replacement of 1553B bus for aircraft (AEW & LCA). Prof. J P Raina IIT, Madrasso its coming :diablo:
this again more research oriented stuff. what i want to see actual implementation and manufacturing. unless u are not doing it u will always in need of TOT.
Not all COTS suitable for Military application. u need world class Fab specifically dedicated for military industrial complex. where research is put from ground up.
Russians are currently at 180nm process. this AMD equipment will make them at 130nm very quickly which is fine for military application. in 3 to 5 years they are going to catch up with commercial technologies when there own research is implemented.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20061110024507.html
AMD Sells Chip Equipment to Russian Company.
Russian Angstrem to Acquire AMD’s Fab 30 Equipment
According to local reports, AMD will sell Zelenograd, Russia-based Angstrem company its 130nm manufacturing equipment from the Fab 30 in Dresden, Germany. Up to the recent past, Advanced Micro Devices produced 30 thousand of 200mm wafers per month, whereas Angstrem reportedly hopes to manufacture 12 million chips per year with at least some of them targeted at international markets, whereas the rest aimed at governmental and military needs
“The equipment will be dismantled and delivered to the South Industrial Area of Zelenograd. Facilities in Russia will provide for making product worth up to $1 billion a year,” a highly-ranked representative of one of the parties involved in the deal told Russian business daily Kommersant
star49MKI look favorable now compare to other legacy fighters.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article10.html
The Block 60’s modular mission computer has a processing throughput of 12.5 million instructions per second and provides sensor and weapons integration
this from LM. Fibre opitc is substitute for integrated computer system.
Fibre-optic
A fibre-optic high-speed data network using commercial Fibre Channel technology ties the new avionics together. “Fibre Channel is the biggest breakthrough on the aircraft,” says Bean. “It allows federated boxes to communicate and provide the same benefit as the F/A-22’s integrated avionics. The same technology is used in the Joint Strike Fighter.”Dual Fibre Channel networks, each with 1,000 times the bandwidth of the 1553B databus, link sensors, mission computers and displays
star49If I am not off the mark DRDO is already making T/R modules for the AWACS project , The AESA radar in the Mig-35 is one weak area compared to the american or the Israel ones, But I also see great potential in the Zhuk-AE
there is big difference between fighter AESA and AWACS/Land based radar.
130km is decent range from 680 modules. If Elta hasnt put radar on specific fighter so they are 3 to 4 years behind in certification.
star49Its a r&d and manufacturing foundry, most stuff you see there is done by their own r&d.
61% growth this year in net sales.About fabrication labs i dont exactly know what it has, but DRDO fabs are handled by SCIL. [normally]
Another thing you need to know is what r&d with quality costs here 1/20th of what it costs in US.
But one thing is “for sure” they have developed quite lot of TR modules and supplying them as well.
It has also recieved 30% offset of the Radar deal from israel by IAF from GOI.
research is surely cheaper along with few modules manufacturing but making advance fab requires industrial machinery so cost isnt that much different.
there is $95m elta-2032 export contract in flight international. so i doubt there will be indigenous radar for forseeable future. as certificaiton requires 2 to 3 years flight trials.
star49you missed the point by a mile and a half. what makes you think that the current MKI architecture wont be upgraded during the production blocks as necessary?
in next 2 or 3 years u are approaching half way point of MKI production.
any picture of future cockpit/simulator/systems of MKI from airshow. we have seen AWACS decade ahead of time.
star49Every present PC outsmarts a computer installed in a fighter. The computing-power freed for use in an unfriendly fighter-enviroment with high g-forces f.e. is still more than a decade behind the present PC-level for obvious reasons. We all learned about that a few years ago, when the NASA searched for computers parts for its space-shuttles, which were out of production for over a decade. It was was much cheaper to look for “outdated” computing-power, than to run the multi-million $ certification process to install some more recent computing-power. Theoretically that is “no” problem. but in practise, non fighter gets airborne with parts not certificated over years before. Real avionic-upgrades are very costly!
PC does not outsmarts the processing power needed for AESA or latest PESA/Slot arrays. even latest SAMs used much more than space systems.
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