star49To be fair to the F-7PG it does have the capability to be upgraded with a HMS (if it hasn’t been upgraded already). A HMS when coupled with the PL-9 should be at least as good as any R-73 variant the Bison can throw at it. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the PAF has (at least) the F-7PG slated for a HMS upgrade. As for the F-7 not knowing the Bison is there, the Grifo is not that much shorter in range than the Kopyo and even if it is the PAF will soon have an AEW&C capability.
High offbore sight missile advantage is when the wvr combat is really at close range. probable 3 to 4km at maximum. at greater ranges the aircraft with greater turn rate balance out that advantage of the rival offboresight missile.. PAF uses combination of lighter highoffbore sight PL-5 with heavier highspeed PL-9. PAF strategy is not to expose F-7 to bvr fight. thats why they are given radar for situational awarness. and Mirages have superior range radar with datalinks. offcourse there can be surprizes on both sides like PAF with U-darter. R-73 has good offboresight but speed is slow compared to the latest wvr missiles.
star49Lastly, for the people who wish to know the obvous diff btw GNP and GDP, GNP is simply GDP+Net Transfer Payments, if one actually thinks that there is a big difference btw the two, I wish them good luck in their elementary school economics exam. 🙂
MODS?
it depends on size of country economy. for some countries $1 or 2b in net transfer makes difference of 1 or 2 % in growth rates.
star49All I meant was that one of you said 5 years, and one of you said 6 years. Neither of those add up to $100B figuring a 7% growth rate. That is the discrepancy in the statements that were made. I’m not judging the guy or making a comment on the economy of Pakistan, just pointing out a computational error.
$100b figure is not based on growth rates but addition of new sectors in GDP calculation.
star49Wingspan is 9.45m and length is 14.95m as of now and wing area will be closer to F-16. i think nose can hold MIG-29 nose size radar. bigger than APG-67. so it is bigger than F-20 according 2004 specification.
star49it hasnt been decided how many will be built locally if any at all but first 4 f-22p will be built in china.
It involves both but it unclear all of them 100% built in china.
http://www.dawn.com/2005/04/07/nat1.htm
China to transfer technology: F-22P frigates
By Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD, April 6: Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah on Wednesday said that China would transfer technology to Pakistan for manufacturing of F-22P Frigates. “This project will play a pivotal role in taking the already existing bond of friendship between two countries to new heights,” said the Naval chief after a meeting with a Chinese ship-building corporation team at the Naval Headquarters (NHQ).
Admiral Karimullah said in the present-day complex maritime scenario, surface combat platforms play the key role of the main artery, and the induction of F-22P frigates in the Pakistan Navy will significantly augment the existing surface fleet coupled with the transfer of the technology advantage.
“The F-22P frigate project, while contributing significantly to maritime defence of the country, will also add a new dimension to China-Pakistan collaboration in the defence field,” he said.
During the meeting between the Chinese team and the Naval chief, the discussion remained focused on building of four state-of-the-art F-22P Frigates in China with special emphasis on transfer of technology to Pakistan to facilitate indigenous construction and to ensure positive participation of the local industry in the project. With regard to the indigenous construction of the ship, up-gradation of the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works with new machinery and requisite infrastructure and Chinese support in ship design, construction and test trials was also discussed. The concept of availability, reliability and maintainability (ARM) and life-support cycle was also deliberated upon. Technical and operational training, which forms an important part of the project, was deliberated upon.
The NHQ said the contract is the first of its kind as the Pakistan Navy for the first time will be constructing and purchasing ships of this size in collaboration with China. This project itself is magnanimous which includes all aspects of additional support required for ship design, construction, tests and trials, ammunition, six organic helicopters and spare parts.The NHQ said the F-22P frigates have evolved from the existing design of latest Chinese frigates with [b]modifications and customization to meet Pakistan Navy’s requirements. [b]The ship has good manoeuvrability and survivability characteristics with an effective offensive punch. The ship design also adopts stealth features to minimize its detection and enhance the combat capability.
The NHQ said the combat system of F-22P ships features various sensors for surveillance and detection of surface, sub-surface, and air contacts and corresponding engagement weapon systems. All the sensors and weapons are integrated through a command and control network, which is also supported by the navigation, communication and ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore data link networks.
The NHQ said the F-22P is capable of operating independently or as part of a task force in a multi-threat scenario. It is also capable of operating in areas contaminated with nuclear, biological and chemical agents. The frigate is well equipped for anti-submarine, anti-surface and anti-air warfare as well as self-defence capabilities. To add to its capabilities, the ship is embarked with helicopters to conduct anti-submarine operations. The presence of these helicopters will enhance the ship’s operational range in searching, detecting and attacking the submarine.
The NHQ said the signing of the contract for F-22P project is a landmark event for the Pakistan Navy and for those to follow.
star49Can pakistan afford to bid for this. Last I heard they were asking china for loan to buy the F-22p’s. :diablo:
It is not buy agreement. It includes TOT, and building infrastructure for building them locally and PN want to spare money for enhancing them with western systems. so it is more complex project.
star49Harry, the days of India being treated down at Pakistan’s level are over. But the fact remains that a formerly bankrupt man with a new sugardaddy is still cashworthy. If India keeps pissing France off by not buying Airbus, delaying Scorpenes, dabbling with buying American jets etc. there is no stopping France to make a quick buck by selling to Pak.
BTW, if France does sell something to Pakistan, it has to be paid in real money under stricter terms, not with the Baksheesh and the sweet loans that Uncle gives his gopher of the day.
Oh really those days of India treatment at Pak level is really over :diablo: .
In 80s there was no Italy, Ukraine and South Africa present in Pak arm market but now they are and in future include Russia also. 😀 . I am not even talking about traditional suppliers. Sweden will also come on board with Erieye. Its India whose importance is diminishing day by day. 😀
and strictest terms. Pak has really good financing deal with agusta and the same will be the case with other projects like JF-17.
French are not stupid they cannot be fooled by charade of empty promises for years. this is another part of same interview.
Pierre Charasse said French cooperation in the field of defence is heading forward with Pakistan satisfactorily. France is engaged in discussions with Pakistan on sale of its state-of-the-art fighter multi-role high-tech aircraft Mirage-2000. A high profile team of defence production is busy in deliberations in Paris these days on enhancing defence cooperation between the two countries.
The ambassador said French ultra-modern aircraft, Rafale, is not being discussed for sale to Pakistan although this plane has already been sold to some of the Middle Eastern countries. An air show has been planned in Paris from 13th to 19th of next month. Defence Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal would represent Pakistan at the show.
To another question, the envoy said a third submarine for Pakistan Navy would be completed under transfer of technology agreement by the end of next year. The submarine has been fully built in Pakistan by local engineers under the supervision of French experts. Two such submarines have already been commissioned with one built in France and the other in Karachi. The ambassador expressed satisfaction over cooperation between the two countries in the field of defence.
star49it will be interesting to see if they can reduce the weight through composites in production version as mentioned in one of intervies. there is also space for one extra weopon stations under wings.
star49this is the news item from russian press from where JDW took the story. it appeared one month ago. alll others radars are mentioned but the actual one to be fitted is not. 🙂
Back in 2000, the command of the People’s Liberation Army decided to use RD-93s in FC-1s. This is a major modification of the RD-33 used in MIG-29s. Design by Klimov Design Bureau. Serial assembly will be organized at the Chernyshev Factory in Moscow. The first consignment of RD-93 for the first three experimental FC-1s was delivered to China in 2002-2003. Rosoboronexport signed a contract for the first 100 RD-93 engines worth $267 million with China the other day. Possibility of new consignments was also discussed.
The contract all but led to complications in Russia’s relations with India, its strategic partner. Unofficial reports indicate that China has a contract with Pakistan on 150 FC-1 fighters dubbed JF-17 Thunder. Viewing Russia as a strategic partner, India categorically objects to all and any shipments of Russian arms to Pakistan with which it has never been close. According to a source in the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, “in order to prevent misunderstanding with the Indian partner, the RD-93 contract with China specified direct shipment without re-export of engines as such or as elements of aircraft. Neither does the contract permit construction of the engines in China under license. Should Beijing want to sell aircraft to Pakistan, it will have to find a replacement for the engines first.” China will apparently have to act in the same manner with regard to radars for FC-1s. Aircraft for the Chinese Air Force will have the Russian Zhuk [Bug], while export variants will be outfitted with Elta-2032s of the Israeli IAI (It also supplies fire control systems) or Grifo S7s of the Italian Fiar.
Russian experts say that even the Israeli IAI may experience problems because of the Indian-Pakistani relations. IAI is an active partner of the Indian Air Force. Delivery of analogous systems to Pakistan in FC-1s may affect the future Israeli-Indian contracts.
Translated by A. Ignatkin
star49Noone is saying that France will not sell to Pakistan, there is howeverrealistic observation of Pakistani finances, we had the same discussion last month, Pakistan still has to honour IMF financial reform demands which are still in place as precondition to get off the “bankrupt list” of states, remember two years ago anyone?
Hence it is more practical for Pakistan to buy either from China due to nice payment facilities and cheap prices or the USA due to a nice spread in payment facilities and US AIDE all of which is not disclosed to the public.
IMF didnot stop PA on spending $1B on ukranian tanks+engine. and i am not going into other stuff. the same will be the case with Erieye purchase. just Mirage upgrade is alone is over $200m (grifo+segem) not the weopons. It is just PAF has F-16 infrastructure and training and whole airforce tactics is based on this. that was the reason for chosing Grifo radars as it is almost clone of APG-68.
star49now French has come open about Mirages. i think they dont believe in indian money any more or is it the same pressure tactic like F-16 .
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
France to extend help to Pakistan in N-tech
Envoy says two countries discussing sale of Mirage-2000
By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
ISLAMABAD: France is engaged in discussions with Pakistan about cooperation in nuclear technology after a lapse of about 30 years. As the confidence increases, Paris will be prepared to provide assistance to Islamabad to meet its power needs.
The two countries re-established contacts in a multilateral interaction held in Paris recently where representatives of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) were also present. French Ambassador to Pakistan Pierre Charasse disclosed this to The News in an exclusive interview covering wide range of issues here.
He said France is prepared to help Pakistan in developing non-conventional means of production of power including its generation through nuclear and hydel sources. Without going into details of the deal that was called off between Pakistan and France under US pressure in the past, the French ambassador said Pakistan’s name must be cleared first with reference to nuclear proliferation and as the country’s image improves private sector in France will be prepared to cooperate with Pakistan to fulfil its increasing needs of power generation. France appreciates Pakistan’s genuine needs of having more and more power in wake of boosting economic activities. France has already helped Pakistan in developing a hydel power generation unit in Kashmir with active assistance of another country, the ambassador said.
Replying to another question, he said France is cooperating with Pakistan in space technology besides a number of other fields by providing it with advanced technology. A group of 25 French companies on a visit to Pakistan recently returned with a positive impression. A big unit of car manufacturing is being built in Pakistan where the famous Renault car will be manufactured by availing Nissan company’s base. Renault has already purchased Nissan.
Renault will be manufacturing fuel-efficient and useful cars for Pakistani market that would be comparatively cheaper, he said. Pierre Charasse said Franch-Pakistan cooperation in the field of defence is progressing satisfactorily. France is engaged in discussions with Pakistan on sale of its state-of-the-art fighter multi-role high-tech aircraft Mirage-2000.
The ambassador said French ultra-modern aircraft, Rafale, is not being discussed for sale to Pakistan although this plane has already been sold to some of the Middle Eastern countries. Responding another question, the envoy said a third submarine for Pakistan Navy would be completed under transfer of technology agreement by the end of next year. The submarine has been fully built in Pakistan by local engineers under the supervision of French experts.
Pierre Charasse was satisfied with the exiting ties between the two countries in various fields and termed them stable. He said the attack on French technicians in 2002 caused a deep dive in relations but since last year these have not only normalised but also improved a lot.
“Pakistan must strive to improve its image abroad. If you watch international media, the information pouring out from different parts of Pakistan, especially Karachi, is often regarding terrorism, violation and killings. It has been somewhat controlled now but still need to be fully rectified,” the envoy said.
When asked, the ambassador said French President Jacques Chirac has been invited by President Pervez Musharraf to visit Pakistan. The visit is yet to be scheduled. However, the French foreign minister would be visiting Pakistan in the later half of the year.
star49So the mainstay of PAF will rely on illegal transfers or an unproven clone to power their future mainstay fighter. Excellent!
Have you seen the sign agreement that you are claiming illegal transfer? most of things are paid media bs without basis.
😀 like evaluation of Zhuk for FC-1 . that is completely laughable.
star49Gee I wonder why Jane’s did not see the opening of the factory in Kamra as conclusive proof that the engine problem is solved. :rolleyes:
Janes is restating the news from Russian media. try Interfax or Itar-tass. these are the top news agency in terms of reliability is concerned. there is no such thing there.
star49what are the radar and air to air weapons of the upgraded Mirage3 and Mirage5 ?
I think only Mirage 3 uses Grifo M-3 radar (equal to F-16blk52 not the advance version). the other one uses FLIR.
weopons are from Kentron with some upgrades in both air to air and air to ground.
star49Yes Israel would never do anything the USA did not like… :rolleyes:
And if they did they would come out and say they did… :rolleyes:
And Israel not coming totally out on defense ties is nothing new either… :rolleyes:
The point is that US can detect and stop arms export if it deemed that they are threat to its interest like Phalcon to China and Arrow to India. and it can allow it like by not saying any thing on it like Python to China and Phalcon to India. so with J-10 there are only two possibilities. either it didnot happened or it is some worthless project which US feel that its chance of success into some thing capabale are remote.
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