star49Yeah, yeah… thats all good…..(not that I agree with fully)
But I was asking about
EF does not have any advantage over J-11B. So why some one spending 3 times more per aircraft to challenge Chinese with inferior aircraft in almost all respects? J-11B has Zhuk derived Radar, same IRST and probably lighter than Su-27SK due to lighter avionics and materials, better manufacturing than Soviet era. there is no way EF can do better than this. it is just too small. u cannot put 960mm antenna to its nose. it will need ET to stay in air for decent amount of time. It is not a solution. There are better solution already like Su-30MKI and further into Su-35/Su-34.
star49That doesn’t mean anything. Hell, some people are still flying the F-4.
No one is building new F-4;) and certainly F-4 cannot be upgraded to level when it become competitor to 5th generation. Flanker design is for ever.
star49Care to elaborate…? :confused:
This pretty much confirmed what was known since 1990s. All modern Chinese radars are from Phozotron. and Phozotron is very capale radar manufacturer. Just look at small Kopyo in MIG-21 Bison. and the speed they finish AESA for MIG-35. And new slot array for IAF MIG-29s.
Flanker radar performance will be several times better than Kopyo.
http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=NEWS&template=wiki&text=Sukhoi_Su-30MKK
At 6th Zhuhai Airshow held in 2006, Russian designers at news conference revealed to Chinese journalists that they had been working with Chinese to develop a passive electronically scanned array radar to upgrade Su-27SK and Su-30MKKs, but stop short of releasing any additional information. It is worth noting that these Russian radar designers were in fact Phazotron employees, not Tikhomirov, the usual radar supplier for the Flanker family.
star49The Typhoon will give a much better exchange ratio over J-11 than Su-35, MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen, SH or F-16, whether with Captor-M or a CAESAR derivative.
And this based on ? China has clones of Zhuk radar and that Zhuk-MSE achieved upto 225 Km range in 2003 tests. Certainly more than any captor untill this point. and wtih light weight radars, LCD displays. J-11B weight will be lighter than original Su-27SK. I am expecting 4000km range on internal fuel and 2500km/hr top speed. Flanker radar certainly has larger FOV and with IRST it will challenge any Typhoon RCS reduction measures and with generous use of afterburner and no need for ET. It will always have first shot advantage.
star49Raptors have been traked by the eurofighters PIRATE IRST, even one was tracked for a long time at a certain magical angle.
but seriously some of these guys supporting the sukhois really do not listen to any facts whatsoever, and just keep on flirting out the sAME NONSCENCE. Calling the raptor a “craptor” :rolleyes: Thats why it managed those kill rations in RED flag,:D:D:D
Star49, russian areodynamic design has shown very good characteristics. Some have been complete failures though. But why cannot european, US reach this SUPERIOR level. From what I’ve gathered the F-22 is virtually flying perfection in terms of its balance between stealth and areodynaimcs which would be a dam lot harder than just areodynamic design.
They were very good, but now there are new yard sticks, F-22, TYPHOON. The su-x’s design is dated.
Flanker is certainly not outdate both India and China continue to follow it. Flanker has unique capabilities of range on internal fuel, nose size, Supersonic speed, Supermanevourability, space between weopon stations , IRST, wingtips etc. This thing will continue to built in one form or another and will remain in service for next 50 years. it is the most perfect design for 4th generation fighter.
star49Any data of the su-30’s operative costs?
It should be slightly lowered than F-15E judging from the range it gets from fuel but certainly higher than EF but thats beside point. I wont be surprized that 3 years later IAF comes again to Irkut for further MKI orders citing delays in finalizing MMRCA and at that point Irkut will give them all 40 MKI in one year:D so cost escalation will not matter
Is interesting , when all the people was talking about the dead of the “small” figthers, (especially in russia), then here comes the indian contest 🙂
If the EF 3th batch is cancelled, well seems the EF will have troubles on the contest, i think is most likely the order will be a mix of mig-35’s and the Rafale…damn indians, you want your damned AESA, there is your f*cking AESA 😀
it seems there is next phase of MMRCA trails and MIG is determined to deliver that AESA right inside India for operational trials.
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/mig-juggles-its-fighter-upgrade-options/
A new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is the key element in the MiG-35 package. As the first-ever AESA for a Russian fighter, the Phazotron Zhuk-AE is entering the third phase of its trials. “This time we are going to close the loop of air-to-air mode, and also that of the ground mapping. We are on track with preparations for the next phase of the Indian tender at the end of this year,” said Phazotron general designer Yuri Guskov.
Now New Delhi is considering the case for retrofitting MiG-27MLs with Salut AL-31F engines to attain commonality with the Indian air force Su-30MKI multi-role fighters. “We should have made the offer a few years earlier, but there is still some chance.
The customer likes the retrofit, but making the decision to go for it is something that needs further consideration,” said Belov. Out of 165 MiG-27MLs built, 150 are still in Indian service. “Assembled in late 1980s and early 1990s, these airframes are relatively new, with some life still in them. This makes the retrofit a viable solution,” he added.
star49Su-47 engine is different than MIG-31 in thrust and dimensions.
Moscow, 6 March: A derivative of the D-30F6 aircraft engine may be a candidate power plant for a fifth-generation fighter, Aleksandr Inozemtsev, the chief executive officer of the Aviadvigatel [aviation engine] joint-stock organization based in Perm, Russia, told Interfax-Military News Agency on Thursday [6 March].
“The D-30F6 turbojet engine has a lot of derivatives, including those with higher thrust. There is also a version for a next-generation fighter,” he said.
He recalled that the D-30F6 derivatives featuring higher thrust, smaller dimensions and smaller weight are operated on the Su-47 experimental aircraft made by the Sukhoi design bureau.
“The state ordered the D-30F6 engine only when the Su-47 (formerly S-37 – Interfax-AVN) aircraft with forward-swept wings, unofficially referred to as Berkut, was created. This aircraft is powered by one of numerous D-30F6 versions,” Inozemtsev said.
According to Imozemtsev, the Perm-based plant has not been producing or even repairing the D-30F6s for several years. “Aviadvigatel maintains flight operation and prolongs the service lives of the D-30F6 engines installed in MiG-31 aircraft,” he said.
star49Impossible. When the best computing technologies were Russian already. 😮
It is the actual updated hardware on hand not theory of designing chips.
star49And the deeper sense of such claim, it is still a PESA. 😮
It does not matter if it is PESA. Completely new solutions can be developed in 21st century as now Russians labs have access to better computing technolgies and money. and AESA for PAK-FA is not far away on tests. and it will be several times better than MIG-31. it is just foolish to put MIG-31BM radar performance at Su-35.
This from 2003.
Several of the agency’s enterprises have come up with advanced technological developments, in particular, in the radar sphere. “The most up-to-date methods of mathematics and radio engineering are applied to the development of radar systems, and we have achieved groundbreaking results,” the director-general noted.
“It is great to know that we have laboratories and some production facilities working in the sphere of nanotechnologies, even though we are generally lagging behind in microelectronics,” Kozlov said. He mentioned the Svetlana plant as an example of a successful enterprise. The plant has mastered production of extremely complicated equipment based on heterostructures, up-to- date lasers and high-frequency transistors. “We should strive to get hold of the markets where the share of intellectual labour is very high, because we can hardly expect anything in other spheres, taking into account the harsh climate and other circumstances,” the director-general added.
Source: Interfax-AVN military news agency web site, Moscow, in English 0832 gmt 5 Mar 03
star49First the Su-35BM has to complete testing , then get ordered and feilded in decent numbers , Then we will see what the Captor upgrade for the EF is planned in the 2012-2013 period . Right now the Su-35BM is being tested , while the EF is an established and In-service fighter . A lot is required to get a weapons system ready , opertational and feilded and mature everything to that level . Too early to compare them practically , just like it is too early to compare the F-35.
There is difference between aircraft development between Russia & West. Today if some one order Su-35. It will be delivered in quantities before any EF/F-18E is available. Essentially in less than three years as various subsysems are tested on other aircraft and specification is pretty much guaranteed. It is only the aerodynamic performance that needs validation. Pretty much same process for PAK-FA and Russians are masters of Aerodynamics and structures.
EU alteast a decade behind in fielding AESA that is superior to current Slot array. They just cant leap frog the technology curve.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw072108p1.xml&headline=Manufacturers%20Dogfight%20Over%20Fighter%20Programs
The exact timeline hasn’t been set, although Rauen suggests the AESA capability will not emerge until after 2012; a system fielded before then would not beat the performance of the existing Captor-M radar, he insists.One of the issues under review is whether to field an interim AESA, marrying the existing radar backend with an active antenna, or whether to go directly to a new radar with greater capability.
So far, none of the Typhoon partner countries has a stated requirement for an AESA, although the U.K. appears to be moving toward defining such a need.
Program officials also plan to discuss with governments ways to streamline requirements, which could accelerate some activities without adding cost.
star49The LCA does not have the range to hit deep into China, without IFR.
So twin engine EF(which has the most range in MMRCA) will have more range on internal fuel than Singel Engine LCA with operational load. Both needs IFR.
Put 4 tons external load on EF it will behave differently. Its supercrusie is with empty tank.:p
The IAF clearly doesnt think so.
It will take time for them to realize. Other airforces already realized.
Which is what the IAF needs. Six squadrons at the minimum.
Six squardons of Flankers can be supplied in less than 2 years with 1/3 cost of MMRCA contenders. if Knaapo is added to Irkut.
and India already got 100% technolgy transfer so risk is not issue on long term.
The upgraded MiG-29 will be able to carry a range of A2G weapons if the IAF chooses to acquire the same.
MKI, yes. But you are diverting the issue.
Key word MIG-29 upgrade Not current MIG-29. Su-30 can carry Six-Antiship missiles with AAMs to saturate a target. Medium fighters simply dont have that flexibilty over targets. Su-34 goes much beyond that interms of target saturation.
The point was not whether Flanker was worse, but whether EF was worse.
EF is clearly worse for IAF interms of money spent and operational readiness. U wont get A single EF untill 2015 meeting 100% IAF requirments in operational status even if it is signed tommrrow.
these are 1998 figures for 2001. Make it double for 2008.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404E5DD103BF93BA25752C1A9679C8B63
PLANE (not to scale): B-52 bomber
OPERATING COSTS (per hour)* — $8,600PLANE (not to scale): B-2 bomber
OPERATING COSTS (per hour)* — $13,700PLANE (not to scale): KC-135 tanker
OPERATING COSTS (per hour)* — $2,400PLANE (not to scale): C-17 cargo plane
OPERATING COSTS (per hour)* — $5,700PLANE (not to scale): F-15E fighter jet
OPERATING COSTS (per hour)* — $4,500PLANE (not to scale): F-18 fighter jet
OPERATING COSTS (per hour)* — $5,000*Includes fuel, spare parts, maintenance and wear and tear; based on 1998 estimates
star49There is a “saving” in terms of strategic risk and banking offsets. India cannot afford to rely on one supplier alone.
There is LCA to complete with Western suppliers. those days of mix-match of aircraft from various sources are over. considering the large order.
for banking offset better get A-320 assembly like China.
Kindly educate yourself. In IAF service, the MiG-29s have hand a secondary A2G role, and the Mirage 2000’s have had 3 roles, Air Superiority, Air to Ground, and EW. At Kargil, they performed primarily in their secondary role.
what kind of precision strike weopons MIG-29A can carry and to what distance cosidering the short range. MKI has much more space for EW equipment and Radar is considerably powrful for all the roles.
Relevance to above?
It shows the maximum ceiling of operating Russian aircraft. so Flanker will not be worse than this for any kind of calculation for life cycle costs.
star49Kindly explain what you meant more clearly.
Who the heck said, that the IAF has some other “Role” for the MRCA?
It will have the same roles as the MKI, only that it will be less expensive to operate and allow the IAF to build up its numbers.
The MKI is a twin engine, twin crew, heavy multi role fighter. It is not cheap to operate.
Even if MKI costs double to operate than EF per flying hour it is still cheaper than introducing EF both in short and long term by huge margin. there is no saving. It is just waste of time and money. Just the learning curve of operating EF efficiently will take considerable time from introducing local parts to training. This whole MMRCA concept belong to old times when aircraft had single roles. like M2K and MIG-29 in IAF service.
$25k per hr is BlackJack operating costs according to Ruaf.
star49Leave that to the IAF. Its their intent.
Let see what happens at the end:diablo:. Platfomrs are becoming expensive and multifunctional. u dont introduce another type for every role. Thats old Soviet thinking.
star49MMRCA is also intended to replace MiG-21 and the meanwhile outphased MiG-23. The MMRCA is supposed it complement the MKI not replace it as said before. No of the contenders is capable to lift of a Brahmos. So your points are moot.
That is old assumption that MMRCA is going to complement MKI. how it is going to complement MKI in practice?. when MKI is going to take diverse role from Anti-ship to Strike and full airsuperiroty roles. and every thing is certified for Indian conditions. and with newer IIR/active/Satellite guided weopons there is not much that anyone else can offer at reasonable cost and time with certan weopons that will be very unique to MKI.
Sukhoi has invested massively in supply chain. they can easily supply 100 to 150 Flankers per year at still lower rates to IAF but IAF dont have that much abosorption capacity to operationalize Flankers.
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