When did i ever say that budget was the sole determining factor in R&D performance? Sure there are a heap of other factors, but the common difference between Raytheon an NIIP IS budget. THAT was the point i was making. Of course the correlation is not linear, but total budget/funding has a huge effect. What technical institute in the world could continue to perform and deliver in the same manner after having their available economic resources quartered? None. THAT is reality, and that is what the Russians faced in the 90’s. Widespread economic collapse & lack of funding is why you see such a disparity between US and Russian array development. Thinking otherwise is living in a fantasy land.

So if Budget is the factor so how come they Develop Sukhoi RRJ without Japanese money? or 10 to 1 TWR engine for Flanker for only $71m.
Today market cap of Gaz/Autovaz/Kamaz is more than GM/Ford/Chrysler combined. Aeroflot is much wealthier airline than all the airlines in US industry. It is the Russian steel magnates that is buying and rehabiiliting US steel mills with European technology.
Boeing/LM combine market cap is $100B but they got big contracts from US DOD. If it was free market system and Russian NIPP/Sukhoi/Saturn could bid for the same contracts Raytheon/LM/Boeing would be long out of business becasue they can do more with less money and faster.
ur simply not admitting Russian management of business, economics and Research technology is not only better but more practicall to employ. They dont waste money and time on first/Second generation stuff which is inferior to what they already have with current technology. U will not see first generatio TVC system of MKI in Ruaf but more advance long life TVC system in future combat aircraft.

Pardon? What does J-7 altitude/staying power has anything to do with your earlier comment, i.e. If you are facing J-7 why would you need Supersonic speed and high altitude for BVR shot? J-7 is not MIG-31 that travels at 70,000 feet.🙂

Do you know the drastic effect the lower speed and altitude will have on BVRAAM range/NEZ of that R-77? While R-77’s might have a range of 80 km at 15,000 feet when fired form a platform travelling at Mach 1.5 (with increasing reduction in its ability to manuever as the missile travels farther from the platform), i wouldn’t be surprised if it goes down to something like 20 Km if its fired from 5000 feet and Mack 0.7.:) And there you go…almost entering WVR.:) What Crobato meant was that to get the most out of your BVRAAM, you would have to go high up (where air is thinner which will increase your missile’s range) and be fast (kinetic energy increases with increasing speed which will also increase your missile’s range)…and the overall range of your BVRAAM will therefore be much greater than if you fire it from a lower altitude/speed.:)

BVR missile will always have advantage over WVR missile in speed, range, acceleration, acquisition range of seekers. 5000 feet is still decent height. it is 300 to 1000 feet that is consider low height.
. that 80KM range for R-77 belong to 1980s production batch. so no one should assume that R-77 exported in 2007 has the same performance.
this things are classified. But now 2 new R-77 are shown with MIG-35. there was road map published by Vymple in 2006. That put future R-77 models ranges 3 to 4 times the current missile by 2010. so why assume that there is no incremental improvement to current versions?
Time has moved. R-73 has been exported in thousands but u cannot even show export of even 100 PL-9C on J-7G.

Moscow’s AGAT Research Institute exhibited its newest design, the AGRS 95-1103M small diameter (150-mm) active-homing seeker. AGAT General Director Josef Akopyan explained that this seeker is specially designed to be placed on a short-range missile in the class of the Vympel R-73 (AA-11), which until now has only been fitted with an infrared (IR) homing seeker head. The company views this is as a necessary development due to the advancements in IR countermeasures that can be used against the R-73 and “because there are air-to-air engagements at close range where this seeker is a more effective option.”

That man was an American citizen. He was raised and educated there – but was of course born in Tsarist Russia… if he even remembered the place.

There are millions from other other countries why they dont become Pioneers in missile propellent field?

I don’t see anything there smaller than the nose and radome of an F-5E. Some of the after market radars for the F-5E like the ELTA 2032 and Grifo has been marketed for the J-7.

Having longer ranged radar does not mean first look first kill. Just remember that.

In fact, the longer ranged radar can set off the other plane’s RWRs before the other plane can be detected. There are also ways to break off radar tracking, such as “notching”.

Range of detecting the radar > range of target detected by said radar. And it can go as far as at least twice.

Finally, in Fishbed vs. Fishbed battle, the issue of IFF is paramount, especially when you have aircraft with very similar radar signatures and IFF equipment in the same battlespace. Even if you detect a target at range its going to be useless if you cannot identify friend or foe fast or far enough—some distance will pass and close before IFF gets the proper ID.

they have certainly concentrated on improving IFF. can you show me how many J-7G Chinese have equiped with Radar? Grifo does not count it is Italian work. Kopyo order approches 150.

Indian MiG-21bis fighters to be fitted with new Kopyo-ME radars

MOSCOW. Nov 13 (Interfax-AVN) – Negotiations on upgrading the Indian Air Force’s MiG-21bis fighters by fitting them with new Russian Kopyo-ME radars, developed by the Fazotron-NIIR Corporation, are underway.

“The Indian side has agreed to upgrade some of the MiG-21bis fighters, earlier equipped with Kopyo-21I radars,” a source in the Russian defense industry told Interfax-AVN on Monday.

He pointed out that modernization of 124 MiG-21bis fighters in service with the Indian Air Force, which envisions mounting Kopyo-21I radars, was being completed.

“The Indian side is likely to decide to upgrade about 20-30 MiG-21bis fighters by replacing their Kopyo-21I radars with Kopyo-MEs,” he said.

According to him, it would be inexpedient to upgrade the remaining MiG-21bis fighters, since their service lives are almost exhausted.

“The new Kopyo-ME radar has a resolution of three meters, while the Kopyo-21I has a resolution of 20 m. The Kopyo-ME is equipped with high-speed signal and data processors, which have considerably boosted its performance. For instance, the radar has a target acquisition range of 75-80 km, the IFF capability, and a better mapping performance with a resolution of three by three meters,” he said.

That information is not clear. However, the radar is a sibling version to those already integrated with the PL-12, like the KLJ-3, KLJ-4, KLJ-7 and KLJ-10.

kopyo is derived from Zhuk but it does not mean R-77 is automatically integrated into every Kopyo platform. Ew sutie/BVR missile integration into aircraft avionic system is not easy for limited space fighter like J-7.

Electronics don’t necessarily become lighter in time because most of the weight are in transformers anyway and that doesn’t change. Performance improvements are more apt in propellant improvements.

so all the seekers has the same weight and motors thrust does not improve or do u want me to show who are pioneers in missile propellent technolgy.

I have not seen any publicly released information about any performance improvement on the R-73E.

when TMC can double and triple the ranges of just about every missile than why not R-73 which is the most produced new genertaion missile in the world.

Very much so actually. However, BVRAAM out does it even for WVR missiles. In some cases, the greater acceleration of BVRAAM actually gives the missile an edge over SRAAM even in close range situations.

so why state the obious

Its a waste of time, since if you have an MKI class fighter, the MKI class fighter might as well do it (BVR engagement) by itself.

Twin seat MKI are good for Strike and command& control. MKI supported by 8 to 10 BVR capable MIG-21 can produce alot better result.

Never, never assume that you will always have AWACS, other fighter or ground radar support. In fact, combat flight training often builds around the worst case scenarios.

So MIG-21 has thousands of km range that it go outside Radar coverage which sent it the first time to location.

Once again, you cannot guarantee that external sensors will always be there.

I can 100% gurantee that external sensors will always be there for J-7 class fighter to find its target. J-7 radar field of view with small nose is at most 10 to 20 degree. Kopyo on Bison is 40 degree. or do u think it can do random search.

They are still limited by radar look down and missile shoot up limits which still handicaps BVRAAM use.

latest kopyo can easily go up to 80km. BVR shot at 20 to 30km is far better than 10 KM wvr shot.

KLJ-6E/F radars are dated from 2004 and above.

has it been integrated into J-7 along with test firing of BVR missile? it takes couple of years for realization of BVR project.

So you are assuming that the PL-9C didn’t have modifications in the meantime? Python 8 has a range of 15km; the PL-9C extends that up to 22km.

Where i said that Python 3 should have same range as PL-9C? In 25 years since Python 3 electronics and materials has been alot lighter so same motor will give slightly more range but it does not mean PL-9C has anything revolutionary.

You don’t know the burn time of the R-73. PL-9C outweighs R-73, 115kg vs. 85kg. The weight difference is likely on extra propellant. Israeli missiles are also known to use dual burn mode, a fast initial trust, followed by a prolonged burn.

Burn time i can approximately know from what Vympel revealed as part of R-73 in 2006.
this webpage of TMC (tactical missile corporation) R-73E is right there with 105K weight.
http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/651/
There is warhead weight difference as Python carries 12kg warhead.

There are no new R-73. There are however, electronic upgrades to the seeker.

Surely there are no new R-73. They have been exporting and producing the the same R-73 what they produce in 1983.:rolleyes: TMC export reveunes alone are over $1b per year alone.

Acceleration is more important for BVRAAM than turning Gs as it means achieving peak speed early, which actually gives you higher PK % in closer ranges.

Acceleration is not important for WVR missiles?

A BVRAAM made to turn on its maximum G will also sacrifice energy and speed to do that turn, and reduces the PK %. Its more important that the BVRAAM is not made into a position to even turn at all.

that exactly i meant. so why repeat the same thing.

Expect low altitude fight. However, to spot a low altitude target, radar must be in look down mode if you are flying higher than the target, and that generally causes a significant—sometimes more than half the range drop. So if you can track at 70km, hypothetically you may be down to 30km or so. At such ranges you are likely to be in WVR anyway.

Expect low altitude Fight? do u think J-7 and MIG-21 with there tiny radars can find each other by themselves:rolleyes:. Both J-7 and MIG-21 would need to be guided by either AWACS/Ground radar/or MKI class fighter to be at the position where it can use its fire control radar for BVR shot

If you are flying under the target, your radar is in look up mode, which offers the optimum range (lack of ground clutter). However, the missile has to travel upward, which means less energy for it and less range. So again, you will probably just fight in WVR anyway.

There is some RCS reduction applied to IAF MIG-21 to make it below 1sqm. I mention there will be only BVR fight in presense of external sensors. MIG-21 neither has the range nor the radar power to find target by itself.

MiG-21 type fighters also generally have lower RCS compared to other fighters of the same era. Add radar reduction measures, and MiG-21 vs. MiG-21 battles will end up in WVR, since these aircraft lack radar powerful enough to detect their own small radar cross sections at range and further more deal with it alongside low altitude ground clutter.

Nope. MIG-21 with missiles and external tanks will be seen from very long range by other sensors. they can use the radar at last moment.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is now adding stealth modifications to an existing $340m programme to upgrade 125 of its MiG-21bis fighters to MiG-21-93 standard. Sources for Jane’s Defence Weekly have revealed these secret events in a report published in today’s edition of the magazine.

Extensive tests to demonstrate Russia’s ability to upgrade Indian fighter aircraft with stealth capabilities took place in front of Indian defence ministry officials at the Sokol aircraft plant in Nizhniy Novgorod on 29th May 2000. The demonstration was highly successful and is understood to have resulted in the Russian government and RSK MIG urging the IAF to adopt the stealth modifications across its MiG-21-93 fleet.

The core of the demonstration saw two MiG-21bis–one upgraded with stealth technology and one without–being tracked by what is believed to be a Mig-31 in a controlled test of radar-absorbent materials (RAM) and coatings developed at the Moscow Institute of Applied and Theoretical Electrodynamics.

During its flight the radar signature of the upgraded Mig-21bis was shown to be between 10 and 15 times weaker than the regular MiG-21bis

Wow, they were able to do a lot of a tight budget!
They should do a DIY show..”101 projects on a tight budget.”

If they didn’t start the cold war, then the Berlin Airlift didn’t happen?:rolleyes:

There will be alot of differences between border countries and Russia from time to time throughout history but it does not mean that you exaggerate it into global conflict of alliances and at the end create bigger mess.

Precisely.
By this logic, latest models of J-8 with bigger radar, better acceleration and climb rate would toast a J-7 everytime. But I dont think that would be the case. The fact that Bison performed well against F-15s in those exercises with the latter fighter being better in almost every aspect is the clearest of all indications that BVR is not all that simple.

When it comes to WVR, my personal opinion is that the fighter with better missile/HMS is more likely to win and manueverability/agility is spite of its importance comes second. While a F-22 will win BVR against similarly equipped Mig-21 on more than most occasions, in WVR it could go either way.

J-7 does not have expensive EW suite nor MAWS or massive internal capacity to use afterburner. A single R-77 shot in no escape zone will be deadly against J-7. New Agat seeker has more than 25 KM acquisition range.
BVR missiles are much faster than WVR missile. R-77 can intercept at Mach 3.6 while R-73 is limited to Mach 2.5 intercept. and those are figures for decade old missiles.