star49So to summarise Star49’s ideas;
-Russian pollution= good, Chinese pollution=bad
Nope. I just mention causes of both pollutions are different as well as remedial approach.
-inflation=good and those who don’t agree don’t understand economics
Nope. I just mentioned one of important measure of economic strength is ability to sustain high inflation over long period of time. nothing to do with good or bad.
-the Gorshkov program is in tip top shape, on budget and on time and those who don’t agree don’t know what they’re talking about:rolleyes:
Jeez, talk about sanity………..
when compared to rest of programs of what India is pursuing. It is perfectly in good shape. Gorshkov will go some where.
star49do you have any idea what their production rates are? We saw basically 3 new Yuans in the space of a couple of months. The first domestic Chinese carrier is just starting now, and from the requirements I read, it’s at a higher standard than Adm K class. The Russian shipbuilding rate is nowhere near that of China.
plus, the Russian ships quality was pretty low, that you will not see another order from China unless it is to pay off debts.
Yuan class belongs to what Russia was capable of building in 1980s. It is practiacally obsolete. It cant match French Agusta-90B of 1980s. and now Russian shipyards are only concentrating on domestic shipyards. They arent interested in money losing export contracts. I cant imagine newer Amur class less than $500M a piece. Even newer Kilo to algeria and venzueal is more than $300M.
what, that this is the best price the Russians can offer? That’s like saying LCS is a bargain, because that’s the best LM can do with inflation + changing ship requirements. If the Russians sign a contract and can’t forsee the possibly inflations, that’s their problems.
U have to remember Russia had been dealing with India for past 50 years so they had experiance in getting contract by low balling in the begining and later on adding the price. Pretty much standard practice.
star49Forgive me if I think of kettles calling pots black when you criticise China for having a pollution problem, we all know the USSR and now Russia leads the world in environmental protection:rolleyes: You insist on burying your head in the sand and pretending Chinese economic growth is a myth, all the while China grows in power and capability and is now a crucial part of the whole global economy, a development India is also following with their economic growth. What sort of economics did you learn to think inflation is somehow good?:confused: :rolleyes: None of which really matters to a debate on carriers and a ship that is running massively late and massively over budget in a shipyard that is failing to demonstrate any degree of competency to manage such a program.
when you clearly cannot see the difference between Pollution producing under Soviet era factories/power plants and those built in China that exclusively serve the capitalist world and still producing pollution. Simply Auto pollution makes a big difference. u simply dont understand economics.
and how is ship massivley late and over budget. You havent provided any cost for Cavor. there was report that new verion of RiF-M with 7 m enagement height can now be installed on 2000 ton Corvette. If IN wants they can simply put RIF-M which will be so much better than Aster.
Look at 1200 workers. 1200workers*4 yearstime*$24000/year salary= $115M. just salary component comes of 1200 workers come to $115m for the ship. and add to that massive increase in Steel/copper/energy prices in past 4 years. this thing is a bargain.
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 28 Feb 09:46 EST (04:46 GMT) Print | EmailNEW DELHI – India and Russia have ended a protracted dispute over the cost of a Soviet-era aircraft carrier which will be now sold at a higher price to the Indian navy in 2011, officials said Feb. 28.
Indian Defence Secretary V. K. Singh, returning from Moscow, said a new undisclosed price had been agreed upon for the 44,570-ton Admiral Gorshkov.
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Asia & Pacific Rim
Russian export firm Rosoboronexport in 2004 signed a deal to refurbish the carrier for $970 million but last year demanded India pay an additional $1.2 billion.Singh declined to give details of the negotiations but conceded “there will be a substantial increase in the “reworked estimate” for the modernization of the 30-year-old ship.
“The figure cannot be disclosed as the modified contract has to be put up to the union Cabinet and the cabinet committee on security for clearance,” he told reporters in New Delhi. “The modified contract would be signed by March end after teams from Russia visit here to finalize it. There is no question of giving up the carrier and at no time had the Russians said that they wanted to reclaim the carrier.”
Defence sources said India has agreed to pay up to $900 million more for the carrier and added that a domestic shipbuilding yard was rushing experts to speed up the project.
“India is sending more than 100 trained personnel from its shipyard to the Sevmash shipyard to join 1,200 Russian personnel who are working on that ship,” a ministry official said.
Singh said the Gorshkov will be rechristened INS Vikramaditya and join the Indian navy as early as 2011.
“The warship requires installation of new turbines, boilers, 2,500 kilometers of cabling and strengthening of its flight deck as part of the new retrofitting to be undertaken on the carrier,” he said. The carrier will be ready by 2010 after which it would undergo 18 months of sea trials.”
Under the contract, Russian shipyard Sevmash will equip the vessel with modern weapons, 16 MiG-29 fighter jets and a fleet of anti-submarine helicopters.
Admiral Gorshkov is set to fill a vacuum left by the scrapping in 1997 of India’s first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, which had been in service since 1961.
The Indian navy has only one operational aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat, which is set to be phased out in coming years.
The breakthrough on the deal came three months after Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh flew to Moscow on Nov. 12 for talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin on defense and political ties.
Russia accounts for 70 percent of Indian arms supplies, but late deliveries and commercial disagreements have led New Delhi to use other suppliers such as Israel, Britain, France and the U.S.
Russia is in a race with western rivals for a $10 billion deal to sell 126 fighter jets, artillery worth $2 billion and 317 helicopters worth $1 billion to India
star49Commercial economic development means selling stuff people want to buy. Russia can do that with military equipment, they seem unable to do so with consumer goods and non military products. China has seen explosive economic development, massively enhanced personal wealth and is becoming ever more technologically advanced.
So comercial development means turning a country into a Sweatshop of the world with full of pollution. Most of profits goes to Western retailers and corporations.
Russia have been very successfull in high end stuff like sending a space tourists and satellite launch business. Less human resources are need to create greater profits. there is high end R&D in every project of the world where russian brain is there. But since the end product is manufactured in China so you only see made in China Label. u cannot put list of countries on each product for idea to mathematical models. and i dont believe in your so called enhanced wealth phenomena. A wealthy country should sustain very high inflation not scared by it.
star49No, not by any stretch can Gorshkov now be described as a “bargain”. You clearly have no understanding of the technology of other industries, to describe automotive industry as low tech/low margin displays a total lack of understanding. And you clearly don’t understand commercial ship building (we’ll set aside the question of quite why Sevmash signed a tanker building contract if it was so low end and why they have failed to deliver if it is so easy) as in terms of basic platform design (i.e. hull form, propulsion, control systems etc.) commercial vessel design is years ahead of military design, have you ever wondered why the IEP fan fare is making many scratch their heads when the concept was accepted by commercial operators years ago and is actually a thoroughly proven, mature technology. And that brings me to China, whatever people think of China, they do know how to build ships and are building up a first class maritime industrial base that puts them in a very strong position to build up their fleet in the future, if that is what they want, including building carriers if carriers are in the PLAN plan. In a way this is a microcosm of the whole challenge facing Russia, i.e. how to translate excellent military technology into a strong commercial economy, China has done it the other way, developed a strong commercial economy that means they are now financially able and technically capable of military expansion/development and it has worked better IMO.
u have clearly no idea. Severodvnsk is government controlled Shipyard. So Russian government decided to complete all sudden Submarines or other military projects for Russian navy so it does not matter how big or small foreign contract it is there will be no workforce to finish it. 4th generation Submrines are much complex to build than any surface ships. u have to look at quietness and pressure at depths. and what is meant by strong commercial economy? Built on its own intellectual property like Kamaz.
star49Well, Norwegian commercial ship owners don’t seem too impressed with the ability of Sevmash to build a decent ship and given the huge cost and time over runs of the gorshkov there now seems little reason to justify buying that ship over accelerating the IAC program IMO. The Gorshkov was always a long run for a small slide in terms of it’s air group, it’s no longer even a bargain, and like it or not it’s a 70’s type that was laid up and rusting for over a decade. Something to remember, basic naval platform design and manufacture relies on marine engineering and naval architecture, those two disciplines are driven by commercial development, and Italy is way ahead of Russia in commercial marine engineering and naval architecture. That is what China have done right, they’re establishing a very developed ship building industry that is developing expertise and improved QC all of the time, meaning when China does decide to build carriers they will be in a very strong position to do it. China-get a ship building base of excellence, scavenge the Varyag for ideas and hey presto-carriers by the bucket load if they want them.
Gorskhov is still a bargain thats why India is still interested in it. u have to take into account cost and time ove runs in Italain carrier and F-35 planes for next 15 years.
Russia tremendous wage growth and inflation. It is understandable that they will walk out of most the depreciating export contacts and concentrate more on stratgic high end stuff like floating nuclear reactors, ice breakers, SSBN, SSN, SSK and aircraft carrier.
Commerical ship building is low end industry like auto, textiles in 21st century etc. So even China can Supertankers but it will take long time for the to make a single decent carrier or SSBN/SSK/SSN at high production rate with some acceptable standards.
star49For example?
Every thing like EF/Rafale/Leopard/Leclerc/. Withou Air Protection like USN. No European navy can face Russian AntiShip missiles.
The same problems that Russian industry is facing today.
Nope. They have set over $200B capital budget untill 2015. Which roughly equals to 600B Euros in PPP terms for European.
In general, true perhaps, but we are talking about naval technology here, and what combat experience has Soviet/Russian naval tech enjoyed in the last 15 years, in the last 50 years?
Which has exported more ships in the last 20 years, Italy or Russia?
And naval technology includes every thing from Missiles to Submarines. just Kilo submarines export is close to 20 to Iran/China/India.
star49The true is the 4th Generation Mig-29K is hardly in the same class as the 4.5 Generation Super Hornet or Rafale…………….:diablo:
MIG-29K is clearly 4.5 generation aircraft. thats why India is so willing in delays and costs increase with aircraft carrier because the aircomponent is so good.
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_K_KUB_e.htm
Both the MiG-29K (single seat) and MiG-29KUB (double seat) aircraft are the “4++” generation multi-role fighters intended for air-defense missions of naval forces, air superiority gaining, sea & ground targets destruction with the high precision guided weapons day and night and in any weather conditions.The MiG-29K/KUB carrier-based fighters are the basic aircraft of a new unified family including also the MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-35/MiG-35D aircraft.
The MiG-29K/KUB aircraft are based on the aircraft-carriers with tonnage from 28,000 tons, equipped with take-off ramp and landing arrestor, as well as at the airfields
star49Someone here has misunderstod Latin American policies, but guess what, the “one” it´s not a Portuguese midle aged man…
Brazil isn´t “imperialistic”, they never were (for almost a century, at least), but that doesn´t mean that they suport some kind of southern anti-USA “NATO”, that´s just B#$%$cks.
If that was true, Chile, (and even Argentina) would be yelling “Bloody Murder” and not giving full suport.
For Brasil it´s a question of re asserting it´s role has the natural leader of the region, sending a message to washington (“dont have stupid ideas”), keeping in check Chavez (“dont have stupid ideas, keep yourself civilized and stop threatning military interventions in your neighbours”) and that without spending a huge bucket load of “Reais” in rearmament (the Brazilian economy and Government budget are almost equivalent to Russia´s, the big diference between the two, it´s the amount that his spent with the respective armed forces).
That´s a very far diferent picture of a unified South America anti-USA Bloc that you´re trying (hard) to portray.
And besides, Lula won´t be there forever and the Brasilian oposition simply hates Chavez. Next change of governement in Brasilia (or in Caracas, or in Buenos Aires) and the Geo Political situation changes 180º degress.
Let´s just hope that South America keeps calm.
Brazillion economy equal to Russia? u need a serious Lesson in economics.
star49You probably know much more about this than I do, given that my background was in military aerospace. It’s been years since any client asked me about the civil scene.
Are Perm and Saturn direct competitors in terms of product range? I think the Saturn GD’s remarks were part of a larger comment about the widespread lack of funding for the Russian aero engine industry in general rather than criticism of Perm.
That 9,000 hrs is higher than the last figures I’ve seen, but those were a couple of years old.
How is the PS-90 series is doing in terms of cyclic life for the main rotating assemblies and how do those compare with Western engines? The 2005 figures were 5,000 hrs (hot parts) and 10,000 hrs (cold parts).
It’s good to know that the developed variants are coming along — progress to date has been slow.
Yes they are now direct competitors in civillian. u have to look at SEM-146 engine for Sukhoi RRJ and D-30 for IL-76.
http://www.avid.ru/eng/advanced-developments/based-ps-90a/PS-12/
http://www.avid.ru/eng/advanced-developments/based-ps-12/
http://www.royfc.com/news/jul/2402jul03.html
star49I agree here. I think the naval K in its present configuration could dare to mess up with last Mirage 2000s, Delta model Hornets with APG-73 or F-16C Block 50. Maybe even Gripen (well, the netcentric capabilities of the little Swede are probably one generation ahead).
Still, a serious performer, I would not feel offended if they invited me for a flight 😉
those Mirage-2000-5/F-16C blocks/F-18C belong to era of MIG-29A/C versions. when RD-33 had hardly 300 to 400 hr engine life (hence decrease in actual thrust because of wear and tear) and aircraft lack Full FBW.
Now engines has 4000 life with upgraded thrust, use of composites in body structures, FBW and increase fuel capacity. Mirage-2000 -9 remain with same obsolete aerodynamics which cant deal with MIG-29s in IAF. similar is the case with F-16E (weight approaching 10 tons) and F-18E 15.5 tons. MIG-29 is more in Rafale/EF class. i am not going into 3D TVC system that gives superior nose pointing ability and turn around for both first shot and escape.
star49I have told you this multiple times before, you are a racist, why you are allowed to post on this forum has long been beyond me and I will not lower myself to engage in a discussion with you the outcome of which is clear.:mad:
For the record there is no reference to the Mig-29K getting an AESA.
where i stated that MIG-29K is getting AESA. i just put link that a number of countries now offer AESA based self protection suites and every country put there own communication system based on its own net centric solutions. So electronics is not a advantage. It is the platform and weopon system that make a difference.
star49They are not particularly obsolete, but they are uncompetitive by Western standards and have questionable future prospects…
“Although the PS-90A family of engines have a satisfactory record of 12 years in service…they are financially uncompetitive with Western engines because of their need for time-dependent maintenance and parts replacement.”
Jane’s Aero Engines“If you take the PS-90, neither the shareholders nor the management of Aviadvigatel or Perm Motors are interested…Upgrading, such as the PS-90A2, is just empty talk.”
General Director of Saturn NPO
Saturn is competitor to Perm. and rest is old information. 9000hrs without repair. PS-90A2 has some western parts so there is PS-90A1 in middle and prospective PS-12.
http://www.avid.ru/eng/pr/news/651/
PS-90A engine has become the first Russian aero-engine, which operated eight thousand flight hours without removal from wing. The high time engine accumulated 9 307 flight hours in the IL-96-300 of Aeroflot with no repair made
In 2008 the PS-90A2 aero-engine deliveries will get going. Two first production engines will be acquired by Ilyushin Finance Co. for flight testing
star49That is certainly no fantasy land, the Super Hornet would toast anything short of a Mig-35. The Mig-35 is a different matter but if you want to believe that the Mig-29K is as good as a AESA equipped low RCS super hornet feel free.:rolleyes:
That post shows once again that you know nothing about Russian weapons, if you did you would know that the Mig-29K is actually a better aircraft than the SMT and is roughly comparable to the Mig-29M2…….they both use the same radar, or at least they did until the M2 got the Zhuk-A.:rolleyes:
So it comes down low RCS and AESA radar. so what do u think about ELTA self protection suite that MIG-29K is likely to carry. It will defeat any advantage that F-18E/Rafale might have in electronics at much lower price.
or they can upgrade with this one. So they have so much room for improvment. and self protection suite now also T/R modules.
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/news/?page=1&tid=4&id=31
The solid-state self-protection jammer ELT/568(V)2 utilizing the cutting-edge technologies ensures the aircraft self-defense from radar-controlled anti aircraft artillery, «Air-to-Air» and «Surface-to-Air» missiles, as well as provides jamming of Air Interceptor radars.
In case of the Customer’s positive decision the export MiG-35 avionics suite shall incorporate ELT/568(V)2.
MIG-29K always have newer IRST incase radar is jammed.
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_K_KUB_e.htm
significantly reduced signature in radar range
The MiG-29K/KUB fighters are equipped with state-of-the-art multi-channel IRST with target designation system to the anti-radar passive war-head missiles.
star49The question was not specifically about naval fighters.:p
Oh and the Rafale and Super Hornet are both better fighters than the Mig-29K so take your racially motivated BS and get of this forum.:mad:
Rafale/F-18E better fighters? in what sense. except for sky high cost.
Neither Rafale or F-18E are stealthy enough with external stores nor they can supercrusie. nor there Top speed can match MIG-29K. i doubt they can match MIG in vertical climb. they produce similar ranges. they arent flanker that can chose combat at will.
And they simply dont have supersonic missles. KH-31PMK goes 200KM. so similar performance should be expected of KH-31A. MIG-29K already has Top Sight helmet mount and India specific avionics. So prepackaged Rafale/F-18 do not stand a chance. and MIG-29K will be in Top ten fighters this year.
1-F-22, 2- MIG-31,3- Su-27SM, ,4-Su-30MKI. they rest are just more less equal. I can see MIG-29K in Top 5.
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