talk about people using personal attacks and sly remarks when trying to “prove” their point. very mature

and to Flogger, no I’m not Golden Dragon.

Bringing in the Scorpene versus any Western aircraft is flawed. By the same people who argued that India uses MiG-27s because the Mirage 2000 is expensive, it is the same logic. Western equipment Malaysia uses is generally of better quality but Malaysia, despite its economic success, still has financial constraints and still needs to limit funding elsewhere and like it or not, the F-15 can be very expensive and it was never offered in the first place and that fact remains.

ur talking nonsense. In 2001-2002 when Malaysia was negotiating for FLankers(priced in dollars) Euros was lesser in value than Dollars. they could have easily got with Euro stuff. and Scorpened is among the most expensive diesel electric. F-15 is not expensive than F-18E for smaller batches. look at Singapore vs Australlia.

As for Chinese aircraft, the Spey is a western engine so what? there were no Russian equivalents that could fit in the JH-7 and China had to make do with what it got. Now the question is, if there was a Russian equivalent, would it have made the JH-7 better? Other aircraft such as the FC-1 and J-10 are temporarily using Russian engines not because they like it, but because there is no alternative at the moment. America and Europe wont sell its engines, but China is very close to fielding its own and replacing it and there goes Russia’s market for engines.

u can easily put AL-31/AL-21 into JH-7. it is just the cost and licensing fees that made a difference. and what do u mean by temproray? Every thing is temproray untill newer models comes.

Even India’s own domestic LCA aircraft opted for a western engine instead of an RD-33.

and they put R-73 missiles on that so?. LCA was western sourced program from begining so IAF has different source not overtly rely on one.

As far as Poland or any other eastern European air arm goes.. note that most of them got rid of the MiG-29s quite fast. It may be manouverable, but its expensive to maintain and a real gas guzzler. The export models were also lacking. Some one pointed out that they wished they got the Gripen. Well guess what, its a western aircraft powered by western engines and western weapons (take your pick, European or American).

i am sure u have counted the vast economic benefit to Poland from West.

PS, Italy isn’t building the Yak-130.. if you actually bothered to study up on some news, they split off and made the M-346 which is lighter, faster and more fuel efficient already. the L-15 will probably be further developed than the Yak-130 at this pace. but hey, i don’t know why I’m bothering to respond to this.. the statement was air forces that operate both types tend to prefer western aircraft.. all this crap you guys are spewing out about new aircraft types and politics when that wasn’t the question.. but it seems that for some, its the only way to argue against what is the obvious.

L-15 FBW is Russain designed and so is the engine and design assistance. I dont know how it could be better for export.

Talk about reading comprehension,
it seems most of the replies here are simply those who want to vent out to the world their favorite aircraft than understand logic.

– the comment on China and Russian aircraft..
Perhaps no one read when I said “whenever possible”. Those J-6s and J-7s Flogger keeps spouting off were from decades ago and during a time when China had few options. Today the story is different. You can boast as much as you want about the Su-30MKK but in the end China has stopped ordering it. the JH-7 uses engines based on British design, not Russian or perhaps you didn’t bother checking up facts? The latest missiles, helicopters, etc are all being bought from Western sources or based on western designs. Only certain things where the West cannot sell, and in which China cannot develop on their own, are then Russian. Of course if you deny these two important facts then yes by default China prefers Russian equipment (sarcasm).

so why do MotorSch enginese for L-15. the whole Antonov Clonese. engines for ships. remember eastern ukraine has russian ethinic background.
JH-7 is cheap stuff belonging to 1970s era. try to order Su-30MKK after 2004. It is $65m aircraft. Russian prices are now too high now for Chinese airforce.

-next on Malaysia.
There’s no more follow up orders for the F-18s because they’re not produced anymore or perhaps you guys did not know that? well its not and they can’t order any more however they will order the F-18E.. if you also didn’t know, the F-18E is a different aircraft than the F-18A-D. Why the Su-30MKM then? simple, because the F-15, Rafale, or Typhoon was not offered. and in the end, they wanted an MKM with Western avionics and components, things such as the Radar they could not import so they had to settle for a Russian one, that simple.

malaysia can afford Scorpene submarines they can surely afford small number of F-18E/Rafale/EF. but they chose not to.

and all this talk about prices and getting what you pay for..

well you guys pretty confirmed my statements. I never asked the question of quantity vs quality. By stating that the more expensive Western aircraft like the Mirage, is better, while the cheaper MiG-27 is not as good.. is an admission that it is better. The F-22 is more expensive than the F-16, but no one denies its more expensive. People who are unable to accept the fact that on an aircraft to aircraft basis, that western aircraft have been more appreciated by air forces using Eastern aircraft as well, will then distort the question to “oh, but you get more of the Migs instead”.. which was never the question.

when was the first flight of Flogger. Soviet could have upgraded Flogger into better multirole fighter but they had other designs like MIG-29/31 for other roles. They dont need to put everything into Flogger like AL-31 engines. Dassualt have to live with Mirage-2000 for two decades.

Is this a tongue in cheek comparison your making Flex297?:confused:
There was a big difference between theanti-aircraft capabilities between the Mujahadeen and Communist Vietnamese – how many Mujahadeen fighter-pilot aces can you name?:D 😉

Mujahadeen are i think much bigger and well funded threat compared to communist Vietnamese in those mountanous environment. u dont need airforce to shoot down transports/heicopter/low flying planes that lack standoff weopons)
. If u want to create modern version of Mujaheeden with all the Oil/drug money of the world with most modern Russian training and weopons (atleast some future verion of Igla as Stringer was most advanced weopon in 1980s). I doubt Nato can survive more than 6months let lone 10 years fighting. Just cost of force protection will be astronomical. u cannot land anywhere due all around threat.

Garry,
The attack on the Cole is simple unconventional warfare and is defeated simply by tightened force protection measures. Would you suggest that all the Russians needs do is hire Al Quaeda and their coast is universally shielded against USN CSG’s?. No of course not. Unconventional tactics and techniques can pay dividends against a conventionally trained service – to say so is obvious beyond all comprehension surely – problem is that the Russian Navy is equipped to fight conventionally not unconventionally.

.

That tightened force protection measures cost money/resources. which can used at some other place. Russia/Suadi alliance will force massivie liquidaion of reserve money in countries like China/Japan/India/East Asia in favour of Ruble. So Russians will have unlimited money to spend on military. For the same reasons they supported Arabs in past.
Russians Road to riches goes through selling expensive stuff to rest of the world and strategy of denial while Asians strategy is selling cheap stuff to West. Ulimately there will be very long drawn battle like previous Coldwar. so single aircraft carrier hiding for limited time does not matter much. Now dont try to claim that 3 or 4 carriers can be hidden at the same time.

http://stockinterview.com/News/05222007/African-Uranium-Russia-China-Battle.html
Russia and China Battle over African Uranium
leading Russian nuclear expert Yevgeny Velikhov, head of the Kurchatov Institute, told reporters at a news conference that the recent surge in uranium prices “may still grow by another order of magnitude.” He believes the uranium price will continue to rise as global uranium demand soars while supplies remain tight. “The global energy market is very turbulent,” Velikhov said. “The uranium price can hit any mark at a time of crisis.” Ironically, both crisis and turbulence have come about because of the Asian and Russian scramble to lock-up the uranium resources of entire countries.

The notion that Chechen Islamic militants dont have an issue with Russia is not only wrong but laughable.

Islamic militants hate the west becouse it is the west, they hate its consumerism, its liberalism, its consumption of alcohol etc etc etc…..

Just keep telling yourself its all about the west interfering in Islamic countries, think it about next time a women is being flogged for being raped.:mad:

I think you are wrong chechen issue. Do You know why Putin visited Saudi Arabia? why Qatar released those Russian embassy officials who are openly involved in chechen leader murder there after arresting them with US help.

The whole point is that whole Islamic garbage was started against Soviet Union because these Oil rich Kingdoms fear for there personal wealth from Socialist/Communist system which were gaining popularity in Arab world from 1950s onwards just look at Egypt/Syria/Irak/Algeria/Yemen/Libya etc at those times. Relgion was the only weopon to stop it apart from that God send Oil money. Soviet Union simpy didnot have the hard currency to buy people on such massive scale. Things changes with time they same people have now dumped chechens/Kosovs etc officially. So Russia is pretty happy with OPEC. They can drink Vodka and still defeat islamic militants single handidly.

In a way yes. Excessive spending on its Military-industrial complex certainly help speed up the Soviet Union’s destruction.

so do u think if they were making toys/textiles/autos the end result would have been different? in reality Military-industrial complex extend the life of Soviet union as it was able to maintain hold on Eastern EU and 15 repulics. In communist system it is simply not possible to maintain control without strong arms. (Tianmen rings the bell)

I have seen that figure quoted a few times on the web, including Russian language sources, I have no reason to doubt them. Have you got a different figure? Please enlighten us…:rolleyes:

so u take the figures from net without questioning them. i have shown u market price of Jet Fuel. and u automatically assume that experaince people have left when they are still there. how u find old age pilots if they left?

It’s all very well for the Russian AF to fund its flying operations at half the cost of the Americans (presuming that they could do it so cheaply) but if the Russian budget is still only 5-10% of America’s… there’s still going to be a shortfall.

5-10% figure? when Tax revenues are some where 25% in dollar terms. it should be 50% in PPP terms. u can deduce Ruaf budget from big picture and they are not that much spread out in terms of bases and spare parts are from state factories without profit for investor.
http://www.rbcnews.com/free/20080109124551.shtml

As i see it now the USAF has a smaller but more efficient force of B1’s at the moment then what it used to have say 5-10 years ago, not as great in numbers as the backfire bombers indeed but, different roles aside i think its a safe bet to assume the B1 crews get far far more in the air then a backfire or for that matter any Russian bomber crews get, coupled with large and small scale exercises, simulator time, a huge variety of weapons that can be deployed and top rate crews with a fair bit of real combat experience i don’t think the Russians can touch them in that department.

what is meant by real combat experiance in what kind of war? Russians have plenty of it. i will give you example of sports. Russians are spending 10 times more on winter olympics than london is spending on summer olympics. so why u assume they are less proficient in military than on sports?

I think Dionis and 1Man your both missing the crucial points here, if a load of greenhorn crewed backfire crews got together in a pack to go after a carrier group which have extremely proficient and well trained crews with combat experience with some fantastic ships and shipboard SAM’s the end result is more then likely they’d be out smarted and defeated, destroyed maybe, maybe not. 20 hours a year or whatever figure was being banded about just dosn’t cut it , like ive said before i bet some of the poorer African nations pilots get more flying time per year then RuAF pilots do.

You are missing crucial point. Only $400M per year will get you 400 hours of flight for about 200 Backfires on market rates which are 10 times of actual production rates of Oil.

You tube vids are very pretty but there not credible hard facts, i’ve been searching for some figures online but can’t find anything so far that lists average flying hours by type in 2007 for the RuAF though many sites claimed its not good.

we are dealing with military. highly unlikely you will find anything on the net.
if they intend to carry out large scale exercise every six months at all places. it means they have achieved certian level of operational readiness with equipment. All they need is gaint manufacturing system to refurbish there equipment as most of them had low hours.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080203/98261888.html
Russia to build up presence in global ocean – navy commander