Some points.
1. French pilots are considered amongst the best in the world. The fact that some of them, were flying Crusaders before, does not make them less capable. To the contrary!!! Flying an old bird, most of the times, makes one a tactics’ freak.

I disagree respectfully. Tactics is one thing, but the most important factor is knowing your plane’s advantages and limitations, and the opponents. Tactics need to be adapted to the strenghts of your plane and to the deficiencies of the opponent to begin with.

I’m quite confused though. Yes Rafale f1 pilots came from cruisaders, but I thought you were talking about the F2 pilots on that particular quote. Those have air to ground background as the Rafale first replace jaguar squadrons in the AdlA. Hence the lousy bvr tactics I suppose. A good spanking by the greek Blk 52+ was probably a great lesson to take better advantage of their planes 😉

2. The F1 standard of the rafale did pose SOME disadvantage. And I write SOME disadvantage, because at the time of the encounter nor did the Greek B52+ had an operational self protecting system, installed!!!

disadvantage for whom? I think you’re unclear? Rafale posed problems to the F16 or Rafale were at disadvantage against the F16?

3. The government wanted to give a contract to Sarkozy. Traditionally we get Mirage fighters for the AF and german MEKO frigates for the navy.
As I have already posted here, had the Rafale been more competitive, you would already be cutting metal for our first rafales, whistle the germans would have the MEKO deal.
Dont ask me for a proof for that. The only one is kept inside PM’s head.

Makes sense… but Kovy’s arguments about trying to justify the purchase of more vipers due to lack of funds makes sense too don’t you think? These times I have a hard time believing Greece could afford a number of Rafales, let alone a number of EFs.

Nic

A:

Please don’t get me wrong. I don’t mean that your opinion (Rafale F2 should be far superior than F-16 C/D Block52+ during the DACT exercise) must be wrong, but I think the information and evidence that you have offered up to now still can’t prove your opinion, since there is no any direct comparison between Rafale F2 and F-16C/D Block52 in these data and information.

Another thing that we should make it clear at first is what should be the definition of “Far superior” or “Superior enough” ?? If Rafale F2 won over F-16 C/D Block52+ during those BVR exercises with the final exchange ratio like 2 to 3 : 1, will you think this result as “Far superior” or “Superior enough” for Rafale F2 ??

In any event, arthuro proved that the articles that greg posted do not back up greg’s argument that the block 52+ could hold its own against the Rafale, which is pretty much the whole point that arthuro is making.

N

He has categorically stated that the Rafale is the Better Plane. The Price:performance is where it loses out to F 16 blck 50.

If Rafale F1 is already a better plane, then there is no doubt that the Rafale F3+ with 90kn engine would deserve the much higher price tag… provided you can get a block 52+ for much less than 50 million euro fly away price.

Nic

Greg,

That the F1 standard rafale was able to hold its own against a block 52+ is really quite good already considering it had the temporary PESA RBE2 which was still in development, no Mica IR, spectra was definately not available with all modes, and it had no OSF… for a plane with so much upgrade potential, I think even a draw with bk 52+ could be seen in a very positive light, especially against an air force so professional as the HAF.

Even the F2 were at a transitionary step compared to the Rafales that the HAF could order, since not even it had all radar modes and spectra modes, and still lacked AESA and OSF NG. Besides HAF could order 90KN engines if it required more power. Also I very much doubt the Rafale used all the goodies available on their spectra. I think arthuro said that the 3rd level of spectra is never used outside france for fear of espionnage.

I think basing a decision on a few fights would be a mistake. Although I sure don’t believe that the HAF will select the EF without making proper evaluation of the alternatives.

Nic

First and second clash was Rafales F1 vs F-16 B52+
The combats were (almost strictly) BVR.
I have no idea if rafales were using L16, but the Hellenic B52+ were not AFAIK.

The rafales couldn’t have been using it as they didn’t have it. I think rafale F2 didn’t have it either at some point…

If the F16s didn’t use it then I find it odd that they managed to beat the Rafales…

Nic