Yes, but i still don’t understand what you meant, if not that since we played so much, we should buy them…

I think kovy said that the greeks were keen on ordering the Rafale, hence the interest of inviting thim over for evaluation several times. However the economic downturn made it unlikely for greece to be able to order them, so they try to save face by leaking noise saying the F16 can in fact handle the Rafale quite well, so let’s just buy more F16s instead.

But trust me if the Mirage 2000 is already a match for F16 WVR (and BVR too as it has provent) has such a reputation of being sneaky, and that with mechanical RDY2, imagine a plane which adds:

– Smaller RCS
– More LPI ESA (passive first and now even AESA)
– OSF/NG
– Spectra capable of locating any emitter within a few degrees and even range it
– higher altitude for longer missile reach

No really those claims are BS, and just some attempt to make it look okay to just purchase more F16s instead of going for a more expensive eurocanard.

Nic

REFGARD ME OLD FASIONED,,i flew the f1 eq 200 on evaluation flights i am a mig pilot what does the rafale have in common with the mirage f-1 does it still carry the 530/550 and will it make a good front role fighter for the new iraqi airforce.
i am against the f-16 program

It doesn’t have much to do withe Mirage F-1, nor does it use the 530 or 550. 530 have been replaced by the Mica EM (roughly equivalent to AMRAAM), and the 550, while used on the older Rafale F1 variants that are not in use anymore, have been replaced by the Mica IR, an IR version of the Mica EM.

Nic

Hyperion. If the best bet to detect F35 is PIRATE and not captorE, what missile do you think will be used to shoot the plane down if the CaptorE can’t detect it at useful range? Obviously AMRAAM will be limited too.

Nic

As consolation, the frigates will go to DCN shipyards without any competition , exactly again for political reasons, to make Sarkozy happy. Because in a contest, even if we modified coefficients to make Germans, Dutck and Americans to lose, it would be hard to do so for the italian FREMM… It’s the same ship and the radar seems a little better, so how would the french beat the italian one? But, Italy sides politically always with Turkey and FYROM, so , to avoid the embarassing contest, Sarko is going to get the FREMMs on a silver plate without competition.

So, it works bothways.

I sure wouldn’t dispute that, but I try to discuss more on the real merits of the planes rather than something else. And as you I surely don’t think the Rafale will fly with greek colours, which is a damn shame, because as an aviation enthusiast I could very well picture it in a aegean grey paint scheme.

But i can’t help thinking that if Sarko had accepted to take back ALL Mirage, fate of the Rafale may have been better. Also, if the Rafale had HMD and integrated the IRIS-T, i think its chances would be much, much better. A greek company is involved in the IRIS-T and we have already placed the order for them. It’s supposed to be our next dogfight missile and most probably we won’t buy AIM-9X, always in the policy of de-americanization when possible. I know, most probably if we paid something extra, Dassault could certify it. But pay extra this, pay extra that… That’s how it becomes all too costly.

The AdlA didn’t go for a HMD for cost reasons, and because they didn’t feel it was needed (keep in mind the Rafale mission right now is to replace jaguars doing CAS and the next squadron will be performing the nuclear role). That said I believe a HMS has indeed been integrated, and that the Rafale on offer for export is offered with an israeli HMD off the shelf solution. Think a HMD is soon going to be on top of the AdlA priority list, once they have been spanked by JHCMS enough for their tastes.

Rafale also is offered with 90kn engines, which will make it more of a competitor against the EF in dogfight. That the AdlA didn’t order those engines due to cost reasons don’t mean they aren’t available for other customers.

I think both HMD and bigger engines are available easily to new customers, so I think you should stop saying that the Rafale needs in those departments. Yes AdlA Rafales do, but not the plane as offered to foreign customers.

If you guys were to order Rafales, I doubt Dassault would refuse to integrate IRIS-T, seeing how desperate they are to get their first export customer.

NIc

* Politically speaking, if the Rafale hasn’t convinced to be the “super aircraft”, makes sense to take EF. The fact that EF never came to be flown against greek F16s makes sense in that and supports the thesis that our PM has “promiced” it to Merkel. Because, you know how it is… If it was to come to Greece and not “shine” against the block 52+, it would put the gov into a more difficult position. Because in BVR, it’s not just the plane, it’s also the tactics and how experienced the pilots are in countering in real time enemy tactics. And the greek pilots have everyday excersise in the Aegean in that sector. I mean, the EF (or Rafale) may be really very superior, but, if you send pilots that aren’t very expert in it yet, against HAF pilots that have 2000 hours in interceptions over the Aegean, it is sure that the EF or Rafale won’t show its real potential. To make my point clear, this is the Strategy magazine November cover:

Hey Hyperion, nice to see you there and thanks for your very thought out replies as usual. The second part of that quote is what I was talking about regarding the AtoA experience of the Rafale pilots, but as usual jackonicko would twist my words and pretend I said adla pilots were twits that don’t know aircombat… :confused:

I understand the appeal of just getting a number of vipers now and see how things go with F35 or Tranche 3 typhoons or even Rafale F3+ in a while when those platforms are more mature. I find this perfectly reasonable and I would definately wouldn’t cry foul against the Rafale. I don’t like, however, people like greg trying to make one thing the Rafale is no better than a late viper with twisted arguments, comparing apples and oranges, and sometimes plaing lying.

So I thank you for translating the articles that greg was talking about. It shows that greg was indeed dishonest, as arthuro said, since he claimed that as far as he knew the greeks didn’t use MIDS in their encounters against the Rafales, while it is clearly stated in the article that the greeks indeed used L16 at least in one of the encounters against Rafale F1s)

The tactic of using data link, where 2 different radars could lock onto 4 aircrafts, taking advantage of the function that the new aircraft gives, made obvious in practice the advantages of the new F16 version. With special tactics planned by our pilots, in quite some cases, they were approaching unobserved opposite to the french aircrafts, a fact that was shown by their reactions.

I wanted to give greg the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he was confused with the different encounters between Rafales and Vipers… but saying he didn’t think the vipers used F16 to their great advantage, and pointing us to an article that states clearly that they did is ridiculous, and again, dishonest.

But at least now I know not to bother replying his biased posts.

Nic

Nic10,

With regard to pilot quality, surely the AdlA have had a long-running and far-sighted programme under which large numbers of A-G pilots destined for Rafale (Mirage 2000N, Jaguar) have done a tour on A-A Mirage 2000s, and vice versa?

I know that I read about it somewhere.

The idea that the pilots of EC 7 are a bunch of half-wit ex Jag pilots who aren’t fully competent when it comes to A-A tactics does them a gross disservice, I’d say.

:rolleyes:

I never said half the things you pretend I said. How would I reply to a post that has a basis in your own imagination?