so technically there would be about 20,353 Spits that have been built in total then??
You could argue that. But the question here (and in the other simultaneous discussions) would be: is this a Spitfire? After all it wasn’t rolled out of the Southampton or Castle Bromwich factory (or wherever they were built).
You can argue that this is a Spit, but there will always be someone else who will (probably successfully) argue the opposite case.
Is that TP-51C a North American aircraft??? :p
(I guess I should stop throwing oil on the fire now 😀 )
The prototype was…
If I remember correctly, the official rumour/suspicion was that the Kestrel engine which was shipped to Germany for the He70 ordered by Rolls-Royce (Heinkel didn’t want to sell the aircraft with its original engine and insisted that they should convert it to accept the Kestrel) was torn down in Germany, test-run extensively and also installed in several aircraft for testing purposes, including the prototype 109.
Obviously the He70’s delivery was delayed somewhat 😉
The high back conversion has been done well, and I am at a loss to know why no-one has bought it and campaigned it.
Just a thought, but perhaps the fact that TE184 doesn’t look like it’s wartime photos (did it have a war career?) anymore has ever so slightly ‘tainted’ it in the eyes of the prospective buyer. By converting it to a more ‘eye-pleasing’ variant it may have depreciated considerably in the eye of the buyer if he values the provenance of an airframe.
All except TE184!
Could you perhaps elaborate on that?
(I’ll be looking up my Spitfire books anyway tonight!)
An Oscar? 😀
For sound effects perhaps? 😀
Interesting! I never knew that the tools, jigs and other items to construct complete spars, wings and fuselages existed then. I was under the impression that this was something that wasn’t started until this past decade. But so I learn something new every day!
Archer – it was built by Hispano, in Spain, and was built to have a Merlin, or Hispano engine hung off it.
Allright, but I’m guessing that the drawings that they used to construct it were almost pure Messerschmidt, apart from the changes needed to fit the different engines. So does laying out the drawings in a factory in Spain instead of in Germany make it a different aircraft? For argument’s sake – let’s view the hypothetical case where Germany would’ve won the war but for some strange reason Daimler-Benz engine development would’ve been discontinued as the now available Merlin was much more reliable. Messerschmidt now sets up a production line of Me109G’s in Spain which produces Merlin engined aircraft. This would then have been called a Messerschmidt 109, but wing rib for wing rib, cylinder for cylinder it would be the same thing as what we now know as a Hispano Buchon. So what governs the name? Pure politics in this case since Germany lost!
Now I’m not argueing for an all-out ‘let’s convert all Buchons’ movement, I’m just playing advocate of the devil here and trying to give some perspective to this issue, stating that there’s more Messerschmidt in a Buchon than meets the eye at first glance.
My point of view is that when you can put the ‘109G-2’ that has just flown in Germany next to the original drawings for this subtype and find a significant percentage of structure and systems that completely conforms to the drawing, then I have no problems with calling it a Messerschmidt. You just cannot call it a restoration! It would be more like a rebuilt, or remanufactured aircraft (perhaps re-engineered would fit better). It is a bit like the TP-51C that was in the latest Flypast, is this a Mustang? Everyone seems to think so, even if there are probably very few original Mustang parts in its structure!
Tin hat on, awaiting incoming. :rolleyes:
Hi Eddie
There had been an earlier attempt at converting this aircraft to high back configuration, which, putting it diplomatically proved to be wholly unsatisfactory. However this issue was well and truly resolved during its subsequent restoration.
I thought perhaps you may have seen the aircraft in its ‘transient’ phase and therefore formed your opinion of the restoration on that basis.
Anyway I am glad you have clarified your point, as I know one or two people who worked hard on that aircraft who would have been quite upset reading your original comments.
Just curious, but did this conversion of TE184 include new fuselage ribs to ‘high-back’ specs, or is it a ‘visual’ change of configuration with the low-back fuselage frames still intact??
Well (careful now! 😉 ) you cooouuuuuld argue that a Buchon is nothing more than a Me109 ‘butchered’ to accept a RR Merlin 😀
Not being closely familiar with the intricacies of the Buchon/Me109 airframe I don’t know where the differences are, but if there aren’t that many then you could say that after the conversion you’ve got a Me109 since a large percentage of the aircraft conforms to the original Messerschmidt specifications. As with all airworthy airframes you will never get this figure to 100% as invariably some concessions to the modern age will have to be made.
Further discussion welcome.
That should be ‘EE606’.
Mark
Can someone more knowledgeable about Spits than me shed some more light on this perhaps? I was under the impression that this aircraft was a restoration and didn’t think a new-build aircraft would’ve been possible in those days. Was ‘EE606’ perhaps a composite of too many airframes to be classed as a restoration? And what is the background for the serial then?
Perhaps a good starting point for a new thread indeed!
Well done lad’s, That leaves only.
No.8. Cockpit.
Which seems to be from the CF-105 Arrow
Great photos, although that rather modern-looking eggbeater in photo 3 is a bit of a spoilsport!
Might as well post these to back up my claim:
P-38, Wildcat and a Bucker Jungmann. All three at Kermit Weeks’ Fantasy of Flight.
So what’s the bonus price then?? 😀 😀
Looks like they made quite some progress indeed! Straightening out the fuselage will be one of he biggest jobs though!
Is no.5 the Mossie at Duxford perhaps?