I have some Anson Mark 1 manuals somewhere, I will try and find them tonight and scan some suitable drawings from them tomorrow when at work.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Australia has lost quite a few local spitfires to the UK, and while some have come the other way the ledger still seems largely one way.

With the Ian Whitney Mark V A58-246 sold to the IWM and then traded to the NMUSAF for the B-24, Ross Campbell’s mark VIII aircraft A58-441, now Barry’s mark V Aircraft A58-213, and of course the complete mark VIII A58-671 from the Syd Marshall collection, so we have lost quite of a few former RAAF Spitfires from our shores, not counting other wrecksite firewalls, dataplates and identities.

Admittedly, the first 3 above were substantial reconstructions with significant reproduction of structure.

While we have Bluey Truscotts mark IIA P7973 in the AWM from RAF service, and Langdon Badgers wonderful RAAF Mark V A58-146 at SAAM, and of course the other Marshall RAAF Mark VIII A58-758 and the RAF Mark XVI TB863 (but with Australian provenance) flying at Temora we are still well endowed with Spitfires in Australia, not counting the long term restorations of an RAF mark IX MH603 by Ross Pay and Randal McFarlanes RAF Mark XIV RM797.

There are some ex-Darwin wrecks supposedly in storage in Victoria and of course the recently recovered wreck in France is to come to Point Cook for display as recovered.

But we still dont have a restored ex-RAAF Spitfire in the RAAF Museum collection at Point Cook, and while I suspect the Coran reconstruction was not the ideal example for them to acquire it is a loss to Australian preservation.

The real pity is that this wasnt offered locally at what ever price was wanted prior to overseas sale, or if it was “offered” it was only to the “warbird” operators.

It is certainly a pity QAM were not offered the opportunity to purchase the aircraft or participate in a tender?

The one silver lining is that it, along with Ross’s aircraft will fly again (both hopefully in RAAF colours) and our booming Aussie $ might have a local buyer bring them back for us all to enjoy.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hello Paul,

I would be interested in attending – could you PM me please with email and phone contact details as I wanted to discuss an aspect of it?

regards

Mark Pilkington

I have always been in “two minds” over the RAFM Halifax, but the recovery of a second original now restored in Canada, and of course the restoration/construction/display in the UK of the Yorkshire composite/reproduction takes the pressure of it to be “restored”, and it is telling its own last operation/crash story very convincingly, not so much the factory fresh story of the type.

I suspect we need to set our expectations of the Do-17 to the same outcome, it is a BoB veteran and its likely to be again better at telling its own story of its last operation and crash rather than the factory fresh story of the type, we need to seperate what we like as aircraft enthusiasts from what is required as historians, there is no need for a museum to be a airfix collection of every type and sub-model ever built in factory fresh as new restored condition, in many ways restoration is destroying! history as much as we might think its preserving it!

I’m hoping the D0-17 will be an amazing survivor like the Italian P40L but I suspect it will be lucky to retain much shape and integrity when its finally uncovered.

To pull whats left apart to “restore” would really relegate the outcome to a unreliable dataplate new metal replica of the type, you might as well simply create a Full Scale Mockup from fibreglass or new metal referenced from photos etc, or even measured off the external dimensions of this wreck in the first place as against destroying this last survivor in what ever state it comes up in?

Best left as is, and conserved, and hope another floats up in a fresh water lake somewhere!

smiles

Mark Pilkington

My exposure to all this is limited to the much later (well not that much later) early mark I Anson and Cheetahs but there is a lot of similarity, however they use a “round” rather than “flat” or “elongated” section.

Richard I note in this picture of yours that the flat exhaust of the Westland appears to be a complete ring with a side mounted exhaust outlet, where as the Avro design used on the Avian Autogyro and still through to the Anson was a horse shoe shape with (at least on the Anson) an exhaust outlet at the bottom of either half, hence the Avro design was effectly two piece with a top dead centre join flange, this allows the two halves to be fitted or removed from the installed engine.

I suspect then that the Westland is made up of multiple segments to create the total ring, and then to fit it on behind the engine in its segments, the join (& therefore slip joint) seems to have a thick doubler sitting over it, looking like a flat section running across the circumference of the ring, I suspect this clamped on to seal the join between each section, and I would expect possibly a section per cylinder? so 7 join straps?

Given Howards advice that the exhaust is an Avo rather than Armstrong Siddley design, I would assume the Westland design was in house as well, but again using the same general method to form the flatted ring section with seam welding?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hello Richard

I dont think the photos you have provided are Townend Rings, which are an early form of tight engine cowl that bridged the period of uncowled engines to fully cowled engines.

I think your photos are showing a flat section exhaust system, that may have been attempting to deliver some type of townsend ring forward pressure effect, or alternatively and much more likely simply been of “flat” rather than “circular” cross section in an attempt to minimise drag?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townend_ring

A Townend Ring is a narrow-chord cowling ring fitted around the cylinders of an aircraft radial engine to reduce drag and improve cooling.

[edit] The Townend ring was the invention of Dr. Hubert Townend of the British National Physical Laboratory[1] in 1929. Patents were supported by Boulton & Paul Ltd in 1929.[2] In the United States it was often called a “drag ring”. It caused a reduction in the drag of radial engines and was widely used in high-speed designs of 1930-1935 before the long-chord NACA cowling came into general use. It was also said to generate forward thrust from the expansion of the air as it passed over the engine, adding 10 to 15 mph to the aircraft’s top speed.[3]

Examples of aeroplanes with Townend rings were the Douglas O-38, Vickers Wellesley, the Westland Wallace and the Gloster Gauntlet. Early claims portrayed it as a superior design to the NACA cowling, but later comparisons proved aircraft performance worse when using a Townend ring at airspeeds above 250 mph.[4]

I would have thought there were a number of UK museum aircraft with townsend rings (the RAF Museum’s Wallace fuselage? Cierva AutoGyro?)

And in the USA many antique aircraft such as Waco’s are flying with Speed Rings essentially the same thing?

http://www.datwiki.net/page.php?id=8101&find=Townend%20ring%20(aircraft%20component)&searching=yes

A type of ring cowling used over a single-row radial engine. The Townend ring, often called a speed ring, directs the air smoothly over the cylinder heads to increase the cooling and decrease the drag.

If instead you are referring to the “flat” section engine exhaust systems shown in your photos, these seemed to be a UK interwar development and I suspect these were simply formed as two 1/2 “flat” section 1/2 circles and then seam welded together exactly like the more common “round” section radial exhausts.

Like the some variants of the more common “round” section radial exhausts, they may consist of a number of semi circular segments sleeved together around the circle rather than being a single piece exhaust ring, these are likely then to be the segments you can see?

I suspect that most of these rotted out eventually and were simply replaced with more common “round” section radial exhausts built after market rather than the original factory and that may explain why few (if any?) museum aircraft have them.

Edit – Correction, the Cierva C30 AutoGyro at the Imperial War Museum Duxford is sporting a “flat” section exhaust system, rather than a townsend “speed” cowl ring, and so a museum example of such an exhaust does exist!

Note: this is fitted to an Armstrong Siddley 5 cylinder Genet Major as per the Westand you evidenced and as per the Avian.

I’m not sure if the Avian then also had a speed ring cowl as well?

Edit 2: consulting the book of armaments chapter 1″, or more correctly Harlin & Jenks “An Avro Album” the Type 581 Avian is shown with a Genet without townsend ring but very streamlined nose cowl around the engine nose housing? while Avian Mk IVM is shown with a Genet Major and Townsend Ring, as does the Avian monoplane.

As then does the Tutor and Cadets that follow.

regards

Mark Pilkington

.
Interesting links and interesting scans, thanks for those, although the problem of scanning something encased in sand is that we can be looking at a fossilised effect, ie the skins etc have corroded sufficiently to effectively detatch from the structure and become metal particles or remanents forming part of the sand not part of the aircraft, but still sufficiently integral to provide the approximate shape and be detected by the scan.

(of course it could also simply be an Airfix 1/48 scale model photographed and photoshopped by “Dive the World”! )

It will be interesting to see how much actually survives the recovery process let alone makes it through conservation for eventual display – but thats no reason not to try, its an important type from the war, and this example has an important story to tell, its just a pity this wasnt found and recovered 30 years ago?

Here’s hoping its a repeat of the amazing P-40L found in Italy!

If someone knows of a Do-17 lying in Russia it should be recovered regardless – but I think thats wishful thinking.

I found this comment in one of the articles amusing

:”The fact that it was almost entirely made of aluminum and produced in one piece may have contributed to its preservation,” Garside told Reuters.

I didnt know the Germans were machining Dorniers out of a single block of aluminium smiles!

regards

Mark Pilkington