.
Its still down but I have been able to get into the WIX Hangar index for the first time, so someone seems to be making some progress on fixing the problem?

the last post is listed as Sunday Jan 09 at 9.40pm.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

I think it should be Choice 1 – overall black, and below I give my reasoning.

– The official direction for aircraft instrument panels of that era was black.
– Although the blind flying panel obviously looks black in comparison, the other two panels highlighted are at different angles to the viewer (camera lens) so will reflect the flash differently, making them appear lighter, or a different colour.

I definitely think the lighter panels only appear so, because of how they are reflecting the light.

Try setting up 3 identical black panels at the same relative angles to each other, as those shown on this Whitley image, and you will produce exactly the same affect if you photograph it with a flash camera.

I dont think the “colour” difference is due to any flash, that was to be my next test, but its not dark enough yet for my flash to have any effect (some of the photos in the post above are with flash and show no effect).

I think the obvious reflected light that is present in these photos is coming down through the canopy, and then reflecting into the camera due to the angle of the main panel, note there is bright reflection on many of the instruments in the centre if the main (inclined) panel but absolutely no light reflection in the BFP instrument glasses, yet these are perpendicular to any flash and would be expected to glare or reflect back.

Note that the colour is still not “black” even where the panel is shaded from the light above, it clearly seems to be different to the BFP, the question is, is it a different “colour”, or a different “finish”, or both?

I would describe my “ripple” or crystalline panel as being “dark charcoal” rather than “jet black” as compared to my gloss and flat black panels.

It would be interesting to know if Elliotts panel remanent with black paint is the crytalline or ripple finish?

So far, from examining the light reflections on my own 3 samples and the pilots note photos above, I personally still dont think a gloss or matt finished black instrument panel would exhibit what is shown in the photos above from either camera flash or natural light entry from the canopy.

I do think the crystalline or ripple finish might, especially if it is the “dark charcoal” rather than “pitch black” colour as per my example, particularly the way the shading changes across the surface.

regards

Mark Pilkington

.
While I support displaying aircraft in their own colourschemes where ever possible, I also support display of aircraft in the type’s “representative” colours, so I can understand the conflicts this aircraft is bring to this debate.

I understand the aircraft was originally built as a Mark X in 1944, but stored until rebuilt as a T 10 in 1948 when its front turret was removed.

I would agree with Bruce that it would be a large job, and in some ways “damaging history” to try and convert the internals back from its training configuration to a pure bomber configuration, but that doesnt preclude it being presented “externally” as “itself”, fresh from the factory in Bomber Command camouflage, or even fitted with squadron codes even though it didnt carry them, or even in the colours of another aircraft including its serial.

Despite supporting the retention of the internal trainer configuration I personally consider removal of the front turret and display in the silver trainer scheme is a retrograde outcome for the aircraft, I would wonder if the original trainer nose was retained?

With the recovery and restoration of the Mark 1A N2980 at Brooklands in its Bomber Command squadron code and colour schemes and internal original fitout, display of MF628 in a factory delivery scheme without codes would be very appropriate, and another option “might be”? to display MF628 in Coastal Command colours?

I understand the B10 is the basis of a number of the GR marks but also understand there are external differences such as Mast ASV or chin Radar domes, obviously a Coastal Command GR Mark XI colour scheme without ASV masts might be acceptable?

Below is the RAFM history card showing the aircraft was ordered in 1940, delivered in May 1944 and converted in March 1948, retired from operational service in October 1952, so that would seem to suggest 4 years service(storage) in the bomber command factory finish, 4 years service in the silver training finish.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft-history/69-A-171%20Wellington%20X%20MF628.pdf

I assume the “factory delivery” was the basis of its existing colourscheme?

A Coastal Command GR Mark XI with fairly obvious ASV Masts?

A Coastal Command or Royal Navy???? Mark X? (crew trainer?)

Not sure if this is a BX or an earlier mark?

My personal preference would be the factory delivery colours in standard Bomber command scheme.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[ATTACH]191529[/ATTACH] Think blind flying panel is Matt black and the rest `crackle finish` .

I think this might be the explanation, if the angle and lighting is the cause, however I am still open to the early aircraft being finished differently to later examples and differently to what we consider the standard.

Those crackle finishes quite often seem to be a different shade or colour to matt or gloss black, seperate to the surface finish, often they are a dark charcoal colour. I have seen BFP’s in this same finish, and they are not “black”.

Are there photos of the panels in earlier Armstrong Whitworth aircraft that might provide additional evidence?

ie Atalanta or Ensign?

The later Albemarle certainly looks all black in this photo from its pilots notes but being so much later into design and production it would be expected to confirm to what we know as the standard.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Excuse me if I’ve missed mention of it already, but isn’t there a very large surviving chunk of glider-tug Stirling fuselage in France? If I remember rightly, it’s an almost complete rear fuselage from wing trailing edge back to the crew entry door.

Here is a photo of that section:

In early 2003 Mr. Frans Ammerlaan of the Market Garden Foundation and Arie-Jan van Hees traced a Stirling fuselage which had been used as a garden shed for more than 58 years. The fuselage part came from Stirling LK545 from 299 Squadron, RAF Station Keevil. Having dropped her supplies on 21-9-1944 this aircraft was hit by flak and was forced to belly-land near Beuningen, west of Nijmegen. With help of the Dutch the crew managed to reach their own lines after some hairy adventures.

Today this fuselage part is kept safe in the Museum of the Dutch Aircraft Examination Group at Deelen Airfield just north of Arnhem

Here is the longer “french” section as referred to in a link in a subsequent post, I thought I would edit it into this post so both sections could be seen together. – It seems to be in two parts?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Here’s a couple more ditchings, but unfortunately salt water.

The first one at least provides co-ordinates for a search box and suggests a relatively intact ditching, but the second one, as most are, is simply “a needle in a haystack”, unfortunately the costs to search for such airframes is expensive, ignoring costs to examine and recover, if and when they are found, (and of course there may still be nothing left of any value).

Stirling III EH952 ditched in the North Sea 24/8 1943.

The aircraft belonged to RAF 196 Sqn Bomber Command and was coded ZO-A
T/O 12:47 24/8 Witchford. OP: Air Sea Rescue.

Four Stirlings from 196 Sqn were detailed for a ASR operation searching for ditched aircrafts from a raid on Berlin.

Stirling EH952 ZO-A which was carrying a Lindholme Gear* and Stirling EF469 ZO-B would search the area 5456N-0425E-5456N-0530E-5564N-0530E-5504N-0425E while ZO-X and ZO-Z would search the area within 5504N-0425E-5504N-0530E-5512N-0530E-6512N-0425E.

After having crossed the North Sea and having entered the search area “A” sighted some fishing smacks which the two Stirlings investigated. “B” then saw another boat some distance away and went to investigate.

While “B” was away Pilot Sgt P.W. Brett was forced to ditch EH952 approx. 65 nautical miles (approx. 117 kilometers) south west of Barren (Barren is the location where a German Vorpostboot guarded the entrance to Esbjerg harbor) due to the loss of the two starboard engines at approx. 17:15 hrs.
The tail struck first and broke away leaving a gaping whole where the tail plane had been. As the front end dipped into the sea, the crew clambered up to the opening, which was a two step forward, one step backwards exercise as the oil and the hydraulic fluid made it a difficult uphill climb.
The whole crew got out and eventually entered the aircrafts dinghy which had been released automatically. After having floated around for a period of time they spotted a fishing boat heading towards them.

Not much to go on with this one, other than you turn west at Esbjerg to start looking for it?

Stirling I W7618 shot down in the North Sea west of Esbjerg on 19/8 1942.

The Stirling belonged to RAF 218 Sqn. Bomber Command and was coded HA-V.
T/O 21:07 Downham Market. OP: Flensburg.

W7618 was attacked by a German night fighter and severely damaged. It is believed that the night fighter was piloted by Leutnant Krause from 5/NJG 3 who was credited with the destruction of a Stirling to the west of Esbjerg at 00:48 hours while flying Bf 110D-3 with his Bordfunker Unteroffizier Heinz Wilting.

Two crewmembers from Stirling W7618 were killed during the attack, and two more lost their lives when they did not manage to get clear of the aircraft after it had been ditched. Flt. Engr. Sgt Perceval G.H. Strudwick today rests in Hamburg, Navigator P/O James R. F. Soutar RCAF rests in Kiel, while W/Op John A. Macpherson RNZAF and Air Gnr. Sgt Ernest N. Galloway have no known graves and are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

Pilot P/O Irom Granger McDaniel, Air Bomber Sgt Carly Arthur Powell RNZAF and Air Gnr. Sgt William N. Wilkinson, one of whom was wounded by a shot in the leg, managed to enter the Stirlings dinghy.

On August 22 at 15:30 hours the dinghy was observed from the Danish fishing boat E 28 “Dania” of Esbjerg on a position 21 miles to the north west of Gasbøjen (the entrance to Esbjerg harbour).

I understand the North Sea is rather shallow, gets heavily trawled, and has strong currents, so I’m not sure what if anything could still be surviving in it after all these years, but I certainly feel its better to put the effort into fsearching a Stirling wreck before nothing is left.

I wonder what advice the Rescue 57 team could provide given their previous planning of searches for their Halifax, I wounder if there is any opportunity to share a search effort over two different grid boxes and types?

This site has a good list of ditched Stirlings, however many of the most promising/best defined locations for wreck recovery also resulted in that happening as many are documented to have been so.

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=46389311&pageid=r&mode=all&n=0&query=stirling

This one isnt listed as being recovered?, and apparantly ditched intact? in a Fjord.

Stirling IV LJ950 ”landed” on Tipperne on 27/4 1945

The aircraft belonged to RAF 295 Sqn 38 Group Fighter Command and was coded 8Z-U
T/o 21:18 Rivenhall OP : SOE to Tablejam 258 southeast of Odense

Stirling LJ950 returned towards west after having dropped 24 containers and two packages on TJ 258, and came under fire from flak based at Stauning.
While trying to avoid the flak, the Stirling touched the water at 00:15 hours and came down in Ringkobing Fjord just to the west of Tipperne.

As a result Air Bomber F/O Charles G. Smale suffered from internal injuries.

The whole crew were taken prisoners by the Hungarian troops based at Nymindegab and Smale was taken to the German lazarett at Horne where he died on 8/5 1945, apparently due to carelessness by the German doctors. On 10/5 1945 he was laid to rest in Horne cemetery.

Edit: google tells me this Fjord is a land locked salt water lake only 2-3 feet deep, so unfortunately this one will be long gone, so it seems its back to the open sea? – North Sea or Baltic?

Stirling I R9320 crashed in the Baltic off Rødby on 18/5 1942.

The Stirling belonged to RAF 149 Sqn. Bomber Command and was coded OJ-S.
T/o Lakenheath OP : Gardening Daffodils (Southern entrance to The Sound).

When approaching the target area, R9320 was hit by flak from Wache Rødby, Kappel and S-Hafen Rødby, and crashed at 01:57 hours into the Baltic Sea to the south of Lolland. Two crew members died in the crash, namely Flt. Engr. Sgt Gordon J.V.Lock and Air Gnr. James M. Wootton, none of whom have a known grave. They are both commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

The remaining crew, consisting of Pilot F/S G.H.R.Woodhouse, 2 Pilot Sgt G.D.Anderson, Observer Sgt R.J.Nason, W/Op Sgt R.H.Waite and Air Gnr. Sgt G.Grant managed to enter the Stirlings dinghy, and were in the morning observed by the Danish fishing boat N.9. after having fired signal flares.

The fishing boat with the dinghy in tow was observed from Rødby at 08:00 hours, and Mine expert Sea Lieutenant Thorkild Munch-Nielsen sailed out and took the airman onboard his motor launch.
Two of them were lightly wounded and one severely. The severely wounded were cleaned up, and first aid was administrated.

These two would seem findable and worth a joint scan and diving effort?

Stirling IV LK279 crashed in Lille Bælt 10/2-1945.

The aircraft belonged to RAF 138 Sqn Bomber Command and was coded NF-L.
T/O Tempsford OP: SOE to Table Jam 190, near Østerballe.

On 9/2 at approximately 22:00 the weather turned bad with snow and sludge. On Table Jam 190 (Danish code name “Niels”) near Østerballe on the island of Fyn the members of the resistance waited in vain for Stirling LK279.
Another reception team waiting on “Henriette” at Fønsskovodde on the south side of Gamborg Fjord also waited in vain as their aircraft had returned due to the bad weather.
At approximately 00:15 hours they heard a “dump”, and it is believed that the noise was LK278 hitting the water in Lille Bælt due to low sight. Afterwards RAF sent a message for the Danish resistance to have a look out in the Fyn area for the missing aircraft
It was localized by resistance members in Lille Bælt south of Stenderup Hage and west of Fønsskovodde near Flekøjet. LK279 had broken into two and the cargo drifted ashore near Stenderup over the next couple of days, and was retrieved by members of the resistance movement.

Stirling W7441 crashed in Lille Bælt on 29/9-1941.

The aircraft belonged to RAF 7 Sqn. Bomber Command and was coded MG-Y.
T/O Oakington 18:50. OP: Stettin.

Since the aircraft was meant to lead the attack, it was loaded with flares and fire bombs, a total of 18 SBCs which would be dropped over the target so that the other aircrafts would be able to aim their bombs at the fires that broke out.

The outward journey over the North Sea and Denmark went according to plan until W7441 reached the east coast of Jutland where it was attacked by a Messerschmidt Bf 110 night-fighter. The gunners, however, were able to avert the attack. A moment later, W7441 was again attacked by the Bf 110. The Bf 110 belonged to 3/I/NJG and was piloted by Lieutenant Schmitz with Obergefreiter Werner Vonjahr as bordward.

During an attack carried out by Schmitz high from the right side, he set the Stirling’s right wing ablaze.
When the Stirling was in 700 metres height and it became clear that it could not be saved, the crew members still alive left the aircraft in parachutes.
Three men went down with the aircraft and were never found; Sergeant Edward V. Tovey, 2nd pilot, Eric J. Rodger, nose turret gunner, and Sergeant Charles W Fulbeck, rear gunner. They have no known graves and are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
The aircraft crashed in Lille Bælt south of the island of Brandso at 22:47.
It was Lieutenant Schmitz’ third confirmed kill.
The survivors were the pilot Sergeant Cyril James Cobbold, the navigator Sergeant David Neil, the wireless operator Sergeant Alec Donaldson and the engineer Sergeant John James Copley.

Cobbold.
Cobbold landed on the shore near St. Anslet. Being somewhat worn out he sought refuge with Carl Babiel near Anslet Strand. In the morning, he was picked up by the Danish police and brought to Haderslev police station. Shortly after the Wehrmacht brought him to their garrison in Kolding.

Donaldson.
While Donaldson hung from his parachute, he watched the aircraft crash into the water close to the coast. He landed in a ploughed field near Sandersvig approx. 11 km east of Christiansfeldt. During the landing, he hurt his back which made walking difficult.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

John,

I found these two online a few months ago and posted them a few pages back, if there is a renewed focus on underwater wrecks these might also be worth adding to the list, obviously they are not as well located or referenced as the others,

Quote:
Stirling Mark III BF516 PX-E

BF516 was a Stirling Mk III of 214 Sqn lost on the way back from a raid on Nuremberg by 653 aircraft on the night of 10 / 11 August 1943. The aircraft was coded ‘PX-E’ which was a little unusual as most 214 Squadron aircraft were coded ‘BU-‘. PX was the ‘C’ Flight Squadron code.
They were based at Chedburgh in Suffolk. The port outer engine cut when they were 5 miles west of Nuremberg and nearly caught fire when the pilot attempted to re-start it so the propellor was feathered (blades turned to reduce drag). The aircraft then strayed off course on the way home and they lost a 2nd engine over France. The crew questioned if they should bale out but decided against that, instead they would try to get home.
They then ran out of fuel and had to ditch into Pevensey Bay off Bexhill. All were rendered unconscious in the crash but F/S Hall was the first to recover and immediately began to try to get his crew out. Two crewmen (Sgts Buckle and Smith) were killed and the other five men were subsequently rescued by a Sea Rescue dinghy and brought ashore. Robert Moorby was taken to Naval Sick Quarters in Lewes, where he stayed for 2 weeks. The rest of the crew went back to the Squadron.

There is a letter of thanks to the Air Sea Rescue Launch Captain from Robert Moorby in a small museum at Breznett, near New Romney in Kent, along with parts of the Stirling.

Date of loss : 11 August 1943

Crew of Stirling Mark III BF516 PX-E consisted of :

Sgt Kenneth Ronald Buckle, Flight Engineer, KIA
FS Harry Ernest Hall BEM, 1436050, Pilot, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom, KIA 22 September 1943, Aged 21
Sgt J Hanna, Mid Upper Gunner
Sgt Robert Victor Moorby, NCO 1287570 COM 185918, Wireless Operator, Nationality : United Kingdom
Sgt G Parnell, 1579972, Mid Upper Gunner, Nationality : United Kingdom, POW 22 September 1943
Sgt A F Short, Bomb Aimer
Sgt Eric Ronald Smith, Navigator, KIA

Source : Nightjar Newsletter Autumn 2003 and Robert Moorby and Shirley Whitlock and Ian Hunt

Date record last updated : 5 August 2009

Quote:
Stirling Mark III EF445 BU-J

The crew of EF445, coded BU-J consisted of:

1485104 F/Sgt. G.A. Atkinson, Captain & Pilot. (missing).
1388280 Sgt. H.J. Friend, Bomb-Aimer.
1807915 Sgt. D.C. Hughes, Flight Engineer.
1513213 Sgt. W.B. Edwards, Navigator.
1892607 Sgt. R.L. Bouttell, Mid-Upper Gunner.
1368303 Sgt. J.C.Wilson, Wireless-Operator.
R.79844 Sgt. W. Sweeney, Rear-Gunner. (wounded & missing).

The above-named formed the crew of a Stirling aircraft detailed to bomb Berlin on the night of 22nd/23rd November 1943 ( 22/11/1943 ). Just before they reached the target area the oil pressure on the port outer engine began to drop and the captain noticed that the propeller was revolving at excessive speed. He decided to complete the bombing run and the Bomb-Aimer sighted and released the bombs correctly one minute after E.T.A. dangerously low and the propeller was feathered to prevent a seizure wit the result that the aircraft was losing height. At 9,000 ft. it was dropping into icing cloud and the pilot restarted the engine to gain more height for crossing a bad front. The engine started but had to be stopped almost immediately to prevent it catching fire and the propeller then failed to refeather but continued to “windmill”. The aircraft lost height steadily until it was only 1500 ft. above ground at a position given by the Navigator as 20 miles east of Hanover. Near this place, the aircraft was engaged by “flak” which wounded the Rear-Gunner in the right leg but he refused to leave the turret.

The Wireless-Operator sent out an S.O.S. at about 21.45 hours and repeated it until it was acknowledged. It was picked up at 22.30 as a very faint signal and he was given a fix. From then onwards, although reception was very bad, he maintained communication with the ground sending the height, speed, course and D.R. position, obtained from Navigator, at intervals.

Near the Zuider Zee, the aircraft was picked up by the searchlights which were attacked by the gunners and, crossing the island at about 50 ft. the aircraft was again engaged by flak and searchlights; fifteen to twenty five of the latter were shot at by the gunners and doused. A F.W. 190 intercepted the Stirling but was shot down in flames by the Rear-Gunner.

When the Flight-Engineer reported there was only 10 minutes of fuel remaining, the captain ordered the crew to take up their ditching stations. Because of icing, a head wind and the wind-milling airscrew, the speed had been very low. Information of their plight was signaled to the ground station and the aircraft was fixed accurately as the Operator pressed his key down when the aircraft ditched halfway across the North Sea at 00.34 hours. Prior to ditching , the Captain called out the height of the aircraft as it approached the water and the Navigator gave him a surface………???????

The aircraft bounced off a swell and then made a very heavy impact with the water which caused the nose to sink in and the fuselage to break in half. The pilot was trapped in the nose and went under as the aircraft broke in two. The Navigator jumped into the dinghy and dragged in the Mid-Upper Gunner from the water. They heard the Wireless Operator calling, paddled up to him and helped him on board. The Rear-Gunner, who had been observed to jump into the sea was also heard to call but they failed to find him and he was not picked up. After drifting for about an hour blowing their whistles, they heard an answering whistle, in the darkness, and eventually picked up the Flight Engineer from his “K” type dinghy. When the Stirling hit the sea, the Bomb-Aimer got out of the astro hatch but was swept into the sea by the waves. The Flight Engineer passed him a “K” dinghy which was swept away. The Bomb-Aimer re-entered the almost submerged fuselage, found another “K” dinghy, held his breath and swam out again as the aircraft sank, three minutes after ditching. He inflated the dinghy and climbed in, but although he heard other members of the crew shouting and answered, he was too weak to paddle towards the sound and lost touch with them. After sunrise, he hoisted a red sail and fired a star cartridge when an Air-Sea Rescue Hudson approached.

The Hudson crew dropped smoke floats alongside and he was shortly after taken on board a high speed launch which continued the search and picked up the other four surviving members of the crew from the big dinghy about 40 minutes later. The Captain and Rear-Gunner could not be found.

THE ABOVE IS AN OFFICIAL RAF DOCUMENT POSTED IN MEMORIAL TO GEORGE ATKINSON BY HIS FAMILY, THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT IS ON THIS SITE UNDER PERSONNEL

A substantial wreck, even if badly corroded and only of use for castings and former patterns would still seem to be a worthwhile recovery.

I know the Stirling is a very large aircraft to contemplate a full reproduction for, but the German Condor project seems to be demonstrating it can be done from salt water wrecks as patterns.

If these wrecks arent surveyed and usable components recovered soon the opportunity will be lost.

regards

Mark Pilkington

It must have been located very near an old dirty powerstation or large coal mine as the poor old Spit seems to be covered from head to toe in thick black soot.

Smiles

Mark Pilkington