T
The quotes I’ve seen from his diary says he travelled to Prague to try to buy an AK-47 and smuggle it to Norway, but he failed to procure one.

Really? This happens when you are North European, living “away” from the “action”. He should have gone to Albania or as second choice, Crete. When Albania around 1990 collapsed and there was a bank scandal with people losing their money and riots, jails were opened and the albanian army depots were looted. Many of the criminals got AK-47 and grenades and passed in Greece. The Cretans, who have a taste for weapons bought a good quantity of AK-47s from them (illegaly of course, as in Greece only smoothbore rifles for hunting are legally sold). But being a Norwegian, he was searching in the wrong place… Better this way…

Only slightly off track, but relevant.
Can anyone state how the granting of Firearms is done in Norway.
Lincoln .7

On greek tv they said that in his diary, he writes that he was travelling to Prague for buying weapons and he was comfortable there because “it was virtually muslim-free”.

@aspis
I also wondered if he was proved sane would that give the wrong idea to others?.
Whatever happens I pray he will never be released I also hope and pray that he suffers for what he has done.

Ι am of the opposite opinion. Tagging him simply “crazy”, doesn’t deal with the fact that he proposes an ideological platfom (and terrorism) for a real issue that is becoming more and more present in western societies. I will try this example: Is it enough to say to a young teenager that all he needs to know about Hitler’s national-socialism agenda is that “Hitler was crazy, forget about him”? I think not. Because, like it or not, the problem for which he proposes his manifesto for is real. And there are many hot headed youngsters out there that seek their own answers and doubt everything. You need to dismantle his theory with arguments and talk about the problem and propose solutions, not just say “he’s crazy, so we ignore him”.

To give an example, even in Greece, there are, few, but still, existing neoNazis. Which is uncomprehensible how this can happen in a country that has had tens of thousands that died from starvation alone in WWII, yet, they exist. Why they exist? IMHO, because there are situations that in some group of persons who are marginalized, national socialism apparently appears giving some solutions, combined with a lack of history teaching (ironically it’s the left in Greece, that in a “modern” thinking is trying to de-nationalise anything in greek schools) and a general lack of interest to talk seriously from the media or family about it, because it ends up with a “crazy man that rolled in blood Europe” or in the media with “sick neonazis”. Yes, they are sick, but you must explain why their preaching is flawed, so that they won’t recruit some more. A teenager today doesn’t have the memories of the elder. If he doesn’t have proper teaching at school and nobody else to explain with arguments why that crazy man wasn’t a good solution to anything, he may fall prey to brainwashing by propaganda.

Nowdays with the youth being on the internet every day and having easy access to everything, is it really enough to say “he is insane” and forget about it? And if they are more, then what? “Oh, insane too, ignore them”?

I hope too he stays for life in jail… I am not in favour of death penalty for such cases. Death ends it quickly. He must endure the rest of his life in prison.

P.S.: The greek tv a while ago said that the greek antiterrorist service is taking seriously his allegation about having a greek delegate in his “foundation day” in London and has requested from the Norwegian authorities any data from his PC or interrogation that could regard Greece, as they want to see if they can ID who this greek delegate was. I am a bit surprised by the swift response of our police, but pleasantly so.

P.S2: COC 15 apparently doesn’t apply on this thread, so i used quotes.

@ Creaking Door,

He obviously has delusions of grandeur, but many have so (often politicians), this doesn’t mean he wasn’t aware of what he did. His view are extremist, but i am not willing to give him the benefit of “mental illness”,because this will lead to attenuating factors for what he did. And he followed a premeditated plan to kill, which he took to the very end with high precision. A disturbed personality? Yes. Mentally ill? Not for me.

To understand what i am trying to say, you must follow my reasoning from the start, without isolating something. Just like in all greek cities there was only 1 that regarded “normal” the Spartan policy, while the rest of the culture was common, he is an exception inside his society. In all chances, this was inaugurated in Sparta by one king. Who had this idea. And because luck happened that he should be king, he made it Spartan law and they went on with it. Or again, the example of mini-Hitler again. Hitler was preaching his anti-jew ideas since back when he was nobody and he could only write about it. Chance made it so, that he became ruler of Germany and then he passed from words into actions. If he hadn’t become ruler of Germany and instead he dediced to go kill some Jews, he would have become the equivalent of this Norwegian. Some years later though, his scale of values, became the “normality” , so much, as NOBODY from his prime aidess in Nuremember got away with “mental illness” or even with “i was following orders”. In fact, Hitler himself knew how it would end and killed himself and Goering did the same while imprisoned. So why should this Norwegian gain the easy title of mentally ill? As far as i know from a relative of mine who is lawyer, in Court, killers usually get attenuating factors with 2 cards: 1) mentally ill (hence not accountable for his actions), 2) Acting while in “boiling spirit” (greek term, meaning, temporary incapacity to behave normally because of an event that disturbs you abruptly, for example you find your wife and her lover in your bed at home, you go ballistic and kill them on the spot), which equates to “temporary insanity”.

What he did was premeditated, very carefully planned murder and no matter what kind of neurosis he may have, he is fully aware of his action and as such must be regarded as 100% accountable for this.

Mentally ill would be like those crazy shots that wake up one morning, grab a shotgun, enter and mall and start shooting anything that moves and when they get arrested and asked why they did it, they reply “i don’t remember”, “i don’t know”, “I was angry”, “i hate all”. No, this Norwegian, had it written all down, worked it out in his mind, went out after doing trainning and executed a plan with well defined political platfom and political aim. So for me he isn’t mentally ill.

@ kev35

Agree 100%. That’s what i ‘ve been trying to say.

@ duxfordhawk

On the contrary, i would consider an injustice to his victims, if he gets treated as a madman. For me there are 2 options. Either you accept his action as the logical product of a disturbed hierarchy of values by our society’s standards and he is tried as a premeditated killer fully accountable and aware of what he did or you accept that he was ill and thus not fully accountable for his actions. I pick the first. If he had killed my daughter and the Court gave him the “mad card”, i don’t know what i ‘d do.

@ Creaking Door.

Delusion doesn’t mean necessarity that he is insane and usually after you are arrested it’s the lawyer talking. And if his lawyer is any good, he will try to play the “mentally ill” card. That’s the only defence a lawyer can give his client in a massacre like this where he has premeditated everything by writing it. What i am more interested to know is exactly whether he was writing the truth or not about being more people like him around. I am more prone to believe that what he says about the re-founding of the “Templar order” in Britain, did occur, for the fact that he mentions that there was a greek delegate. It’s a bit weird for a Norwegian to invent a greek delegate. North Europeans get along more amongst each other, greeks were never Templars historically anyway plus the far right in Greece is extremely weak politically, so why bother invent a greek one. We will see…

Moreover, if there are in deed 2 other cells in Norway, how are we going to regard this? That they are all mentally ill and amongst the various options they all chose to become “Templars”? In Greece 17 November was regarding itself “revolutionary army” (of a handful of people), acting on behalf of the greek people although i don’t remember any of them asking us. They were delusional too, but very well logical in every other aspect on what they did according to their policy. Well they were judged as terrorists and that’s it. And i am disturbed that one of them is already out of jail.

@Creaking Door

I don’t argue about conseguences. Simply there is the soldier that feels bad about it and the one who doesn’t because of an ideological “shield” the protects him for feeling guilt. Let’s put it in another way. He is a “mastermind”. A top rank Templar. He makes the planning. He follows what he preaches. He is morally bound to his conviction and cause. From the moment that he believes in this hierarchy of values, it is natural for him to willingly put it in act. Consider him as a mini-Hitler if you like. Just like Hitler was preaching and later got the chance to put to act what he thought, he did so too, only he didn’t have the time or chance to have followers (in his manifesto he speaks of max 80 other Justiciar Templars , if this is true or not).

That he has social problems and that there is something very wrong with his hierarchy of values is obvious for us, but this doesn’t make his course of action being irrational for HIS standards.

To make a historical example. In ancient Sparta, because they had their own perception of values hierarchy, newborn children were judged to see if they had birth defects and it they did, they were thrown from a cliff. For our society, this would be a clear index of mental illness. But of course it is impossible that every Spartan was crazy. They simply believed in another hierarchy of values, were the physically weak were better dead than being members of their society. And that was accepted as “normal”. In all other greek cities all around this was abnormal, it was a Spartan thing…

His values are abnormal and sick by our standards, but his course of action, based on a clear ideological platform and executed faithfully to that, to me seems to be reasonable to his way of thinking.

I too believe that his actions will have the opposite effects, but we are talking about someone who was trying to plan up to 2083, so in his way of thinking, things may change in the meantime.

Mind you, the problem he puts on the table is true and a greek proverb says “what a year can’t bring, an hour can”. Personally i do believe that if mathematics isn’t an opinion, sooner or later Europe will have a muslim majority, since there is a continuous influx of new immigrants. For me, it’s nature. If you don’t procreate, no matter how rich you are, the land will be of those who do. But killing people can’t be a solution. What i am more concerned about, is to gain time to possibly educate the newcomers to the western values, to a point that when they become majority they won’t pass a law for sharia. So one has to regulate flows in order to have time to do that. May work, may not work, i don’t know. But if you don’t procreate, that’s what you get… There is no point in trying to fight nature, you can’t win… Besides, if their values get to prevail eventually, it will be because of the ideological decline of the west. When someone believes in an ideal (islam is a way of life, not just religion) and the other believes only in money, there are good chances that the ideologist will expand his ideas.

At the same time, you see in all Europe a rise of far right parties. Even in Greece, which is massively dominated by the left everywhere (from universities to media) , for the first time the far right party managed to elect 1 counselor to the Athens municipality and polls give it to 1% of the voters (which is very increased for greek standards). So, who knows what the future will bring… Actions like the one of this Norwegian, combined with actions Bin-Laden style, may eventually cause some major clash… I hope not, but history has taught us that certainties don’t exist and conflicts always arise.

@Observer

Thank you for solving my doubt about his uniform. I suspected so. No internationally recognizable rank insignia either, but i thought there was a small chance it was ceremonial one.

@haarvala

Your system is much harsher than ours. A few days ago the first of the 17November terrorist group in Greece was set out of prison under restriction rules (he will have to present himself to the police station twice a month). He was caught in 2002, tried in 2003 for 25 years and was set free in 2011 for “having endured 3/5 of the imprisonement period”. Now how is that (9 years of jail) 3/5 of the imprisonement period and why bother at all give him 25 years, i don’t know, but in Greece, if you are leftist the law is lenient with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November#Trial

@ Creaking Door

If one believes his is part of an army and then acts like one, then for me it’s real enough. It doesn’t take my permission for someone to form what he regards an army. They may be 10 people and consider themselves army… The difference between a psychotic (example schizophrenic) and a neurotic is that the first one cannot understand that what he sees or hears isn’t real (for example he hears bells and doesn’t believe you when you tell him that they don’t exist), while the second one does. In his case, he admits that what he did was atrocious, so he is not psychotic. He may be neurotic, but that’s not being crazy. An army can be even a 2 men army, if they agree on the mission and act accordingly. Besides, for the victims, this army was very real…

For us, as outside observers, i agree. But for him, he is also a soldier, part of an “army” also, the Knights Templar whose values of “honour and martyrdom” is ready to follow. Maybe he didn’t receive the order from a superior, but he received it from his belief that he is serving his country, which is just as good if not better.
You can carry or give orders feeling sick about them and throwing up for executing them or you can carry orders with calmness as if no big deal was done. To do the latter, following orders isn’t enough. You need convinction that you ‘re doing something necessary. In fact, he accepted for doing something atrocious, but “necessary”. Because for him, he is following the “purpose” of the Templar cause updated to 2011’s standards.

So, a Court must NOT judge him from the perspective that WE have, since he clearly has different hierarchy. By our perspective, he shouldn’t go to prison, but to a psychiatric clinic. By HIS perspective though, accepting that a person may have difference hierarchy of values than most, he SHOULD go straight to prison.