The two Defiant squadrons were in fact moved North after the debacle of 141 Sqd.’s sole daylight battle, so they operated in areas where Bf.109s could not reach. As the nights got longer in the autumn of 1940 and as the Luftwaffe switched to more night time operations, the priority was to switch the Defiant to night operations to counter the new threat, and the new squadrons which were being formed went more or less directly to night ops. where they performed more than adequately.
I don’t know the figures for arrester wire technology c.1940, but the Defiant weighed a lot less than a Roc or a Fulmar, even with a turret. Without a turret but with 8 forward firing guns, and folding wings and hook, it might not have weighed much less, with a navigator in situ, and it did have only a 250 sq.ft wing. The weight of a Defiant TT.III target tug might be a good guide, at 8,227 lbs (With winches instead of guns/ammunition) The Fulmar had a 342 sq. ft. wing but a loaded weight of 9,800 lbs.
Chucking out the navigator, as the Navy soon realised it had to, and making the ‘Sea Defiant’ an 8-gun single seater, would have resulted in an aircraft almost certainly weighing less than the 8,100 lbs of a Sea Hurricane.
As I said, Eric Brown assessed the Defiant for carrier operation and saw no problems.
Further to my previous comment, after the Defiant prototype was revised as a potential stop=gap single seat fighter, it was fitted with a passenger seat where the turret used to be and used by Boulton Paul for a short while as a high speed communications aircraft. On at least one occasion J D North (Chief Engineer) was ferried to Farnborough in it by test pilot, Robin Lindsay Neale. It was that layout, with forward firing guns which might have interested the Navy instead of the Fulmar.
The sad thing is, that the Defiant’s reputation was soiled by the sole daylight action of No.141 Squadron. They had been advised of No.264’s proven tactics against attack by Bf.109s but chose to ignore the advice. Nine Defiants flew straight and level when attacked by 30 Bf.109s, which attacked from underneath, as they recognised their adversaries, and 141were decimated.
I have spoken with several 264 aircrew, and none of them wanted to be taken off daylight operations after that. They all had faith in their aircraft, and in their tactics; and they also spoke of bad blood between the two squadrons as a result.
There was one role which the Defiant could have undertaken quite readily, as a carrier fighter, and I have often wondered why no-one thought of it. Boulton Paul did produce a design, the P.85, to the same requirement as the Roc, but it was very different to the Defiant. When they modified the Defiant prototype as a potential single seat fighter with forward firing guns, someone ought to have suggested sticking a hook on it. Eric Brown assessed the Defiant for carrier operation later in the War and passed it. The pilot had excellent forward vision, it would have been easy to fit folding wings, unlike the Hurricane and Spitfire, and it had a wide track undercarriage unlike the Spitfire. If the Navy wanted to haul around a navigator, the Defiant would have been a better option than the Fulmar Even the standard turret-equipped Defiant with a hook could have been the fastest fighter in Fleet Air Arm in service in 1940.
The irony is Boulton Paul had two production lines side by side, the Defiant and the useless Roc; it could so easily have been the Defiant and the Sea Defiant.
To come up with two more tenuous links. Alex Henshaw did fly extensively at Cosford himself, test flying the Spitfires assembled there in the Bellman hangers down near the railway station. He used to commute from Castle Bromwich (by Spitfire).
And, to answer my own question, a Flying Flea did fly at Cosford. Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus came there and brought one, in 1936, but that was before the RAF airfield was built and it was on the other side of the Shifnal road, and it was not the Flea on display.
I still think these are hardly good enough reasons to have on display a Swift and a Flying Flea, while hiding away the Sea Balliol, just because it’s got a big hook on the back.
I believe it’s back in the hangars on the far side of the airfield. It’s a great shame as it’s the one aircraft in the collection with local connections having been made just down the road in Wolverhampton, and the prototype undertook landing trials on Cosford’s runway. I managed to get it out of those hangers for the Boulton Paul Association’s Exhibition 19 years ago, now the new influx of retired aircraft (and the Comper Swift) means there’s no room for it.
Having read all the convoluted reasons why the RAF Museum might wish to display a Comper Swift and a Miles Mohawk, who is going to come up with a good one for displaying the Flying Flea at Cosford ? (And, incidentally, putting the Sea Balliol into storage, possibly never to be seen again.)
I too saw the Catalina on the 3rd passing just North of Blithfield Reservoir in Staffordshire, heading East. For one glorious moment I thought it might be about to land there !
The 7th photo shows the centre section of a Sea Balliol, with the engine bearers cut off, and the fuselage fuel tank prominent
A couple of questions. Does anyone know if the two Lincolns in Argentina still have their Bristol B.17 dorsal turrets ? I cannot remember seeing a photograph which shows them. The Boulton Paul Type F nose turrets and Type D tail turrets appear to be there.
And am I going mad, or have I seen a Ventura flying with the Boulton Paul Type A turret fitted ?
I set out to compile a simple list. Its looking now like I will have to create a web-site to handle the amount of stuff, but I would not rule a book out of the possibilities.
Although dismissive of cupolas as not being turrets, without any visible means of support, I’m inclined to note the rare ones like the FN.7, or indeed the Rose turret in Newark. Sometimes the demarcation line is hard to set.
Although the Boulton Paul Association’s Defiant FSM only has a Type A cupola, they also have the turret ring from N3378, broken in two, gunners footrests, a hydraulic pump, and even a seat cushion, as well as one or two other relevant bits. At what point should it be listed as a Type A turret (incomplete) ?
Much more great information. As I do not know the serial of even my own turret, I suspect that trying to discover the serials of turrets might be difficult. In many cases the data plate might well be missing anyway. If I get a serial I will record it, but I think assigning a number to each turret might well be the best idea.
Thanks for all the Frazer-Nash Information. As I thought, that will be a much longer list, thanks to all the surviving Lancasters, and the variety of FN turrets which found their way into the Lanc.
Bristol turrets seem to be simpler. The likely survivors seem to be just versions of the B.1 (Blenheim) and the B.17 (Lincoln dorsal cannon turret); unless any B.IV Beaufort upper turrets are still around. The RAF Museum’s only has the cupola.
A quick list, mostly off the top of my head would be
B.1 Dorsal 1/2 VGOs
1. RAFM Hendon In the Blenheim/Bolingbroke
2. Duxford in the Blenheim/Bolingbroke
3. Nanton in the Bolingbroke
4. Nanton displayed on a stand
5. Wellesbourne Mountford, displayed
6. Royal Army Museum Brussels, in the Bolingbroke
7. Canada in private hands (one at least)
B.17 Dorsal 2 x 20mm
1. RAF Museum Stafford Mk.1 in store
2. RAF Museum Hendon Mk.6 on display
Any more for any more ?
After the War when orders dried up, Nash and Thompson took to making domestic appliances. Boulton Paul were still making turrets, Lincoln, nose and tail, Shackleton nose mounting, and other armament like the Canberra B.(I)8 gun packs, so, at some point they were given responsibility for the further support of Frazer-Nash turrets.
In the 1990s I came across a heap (literally) of gun turret drawings in an attic over the old drawing office. They have been catologued and are in the BPA archives. There were no Frazer-Nash drawings amongst them. The only FN information still surviving there, at the time, was a single copy of the FN AP. I would not hold out much hope of FN drawings surviving, but hope to be proven wrong.