I’d add Rafale to the list of existing 5th Gen.

What?! I here some of you cry as you splutter your beverage of choice over your computer.

Well its just that Dassault have taken a leaf out of their countymen at Citroen and done their own thing.

Rather than define 5th Gen by physical VLO they’ve approached it by signal processing and manipulation. The end result (when it works) is the same as the shaping of F22 and F35 (when they work).

This post wasn’t meant as flamebait but I’m sure that it could be taken that way if one really wishes.

but then you have people who argue 2 people are better for CAS than single seaters.:

I’m one of them (I’ve posted more than once that I think that everyone and their dog should buy 2-seat A10 N/AWs) my comment was more than a little flippant.

On a seperate note mods would it be possible to have a different thread discussing the multirole/singlerole nature of F104? It’s interesting and all and I can see how its evolved from the original premise but seems to have moved off on a tangent now.

if the enemy is fielding TOR-M1 like Georgia did, I think both A-10 and Attack helicopter would both get shot down. might as well be the cheaper one

[callous accounting head on]
Which contains two or more expensive to train (and expensive to compensate loved ones for) crew rather than one in the A10.
[/callous accounting head]

Who will win

Option 1 – sensible heads on: more Rafale
Option 2 – curious Indian ability to keep all suppliers happy and a desire for more power at altitude (them there mountains see): Tiffie

Who should win

Two-seat A10s

Having seen (in the news thread) that Saab and Dassault are getting into a game of gazundering I wonder if they are playing it Swiss hands.

Replace F5 with Gripen
Sell F18s to FAA and don’t replace as Gripen’s are more than enough for Swiss AF’s actual role
Net profit and reduction in running costs

The only weapons I can think of that would fit in that space are more of the same, & I don’t think that’ll be needed. 48 should be plenty.

It would be nice if CAAMM transfer goes both ways and the RN gets an IR homing version of FLAAD. 48 of those in the other half of the VLS sounds nice (but luxurious and expensive).

A (large) part of me hopes that MoD in general and Team Complex Weapons in particular have been very canny and that empty half of that VLS is to allow for trial fits of VLS SCALP/Harpoon/TacTom/Tom/Jumper/etc rather than try to integrate everything on T26 in one go.

Anyone else remember the nightmares T23 had with C3I when first launched?

The idea of putting Artisan and CAAMM on a platform which we (now) know works and then transferring to a new platform is very sensible (if it doesn’t work at least we’ll know which bit is wrong).

In many ways I would have liked to see the UK going down a slightly different route,

My understanding is that FLAD/CAAAMMM/FLA/AS is intended to do both ESSSSSM and RAM’s jobs.

It is supposed to be bolt on (like RAM) and active so needing no dedicated tracker/illuminator (like active ESSSSM and arguably like SeaRAM).

I suppose the argument could be made that it neither be as effective as ESSM for local area (smaller, lighter and thus shorter range) nor as numerous for point defence as RAM (bigger, heavier,possibly more expensive thus less carried). But since realistically RN were only going to get one system FLAADS looks like the least worst option to me.

why is it the Royal Navy and Airforce then but then the British Army?

Many reasons.

One is that the RN has never rebelled against the Crown (spithead you cry but nay that was matelots mutineed against their officers and the monarch even agreed that said officers were not gentlemen and had to have silly dangly swordbelts to remind them).

The Army (as a professional body of men) of course began with a rebellious anti-royal New Model Army. Interestingly though many (might even be all) British Army Regiments and Corps have their own Royal charter anyway.

On original question:

If the (pie in the sky) interim plan happens; how many airworthy ‘legacy’ hornets are still availible? Surely that’d be the absolute cheapest option. Failing that the RAF can fit CFTs to Typhoon and claim that there is no need for Naval fixed wing anyway.