Let’s be straight, I never stated Nazi=German,

No you didn’t and my response was more than a little clumsy. For which I apologise. I certainly could have developed the argument in more and better steps. But I think that you got my drift nontheless.

My view (previously stated) is that the JSF would be best served getting stuck into EF and developing and licence-building the Divine Wind as its F4 replacement.

Its F15 replacement is rather different. If and when that happens and if it cannot get F22 (which looks pretty much certain) then own-build 5th Gen (possibly with S Korea) or JSF or super-ninja-EF look more the thing.

A plague on both your houses then? And actually its not off-topic to this thread. Piccies of Ark and airwing would be nice if anyone gets them but a discussion as to why this is her last visit seems all right to me (of course IANAM)

Last lot cetainly are to blame for fighting to possible illegal, possibly unwinnable wars on a peacetime defence budget. And for following the lemming instinct of light touch regulation but deep pocket financial assitance (look up the motto which the former RBS chairman had in his office)

But this lot have decided that Admirals full pay pension and a Royal Family are affordable whilst organic air power and MPA are not. (to cite but a few examples I am sure others will have other and better ones to hand)

The RN and/or MoD deserve some credit for arranging Ark’s farewell visit to Tyneside.

Pictures please when you have them!

Should we drop CAMM? Short answer it depends on the details of the contract.

Potentially over RAM it offers
Export potential and earnings, sovereignty, speed in flight, range, speed of bringing to bear on target, number of rounds ready for launch, active guidance, airlaunch and land launch capability

Over Aster-15 it could bring
Simpler, cheaper, lower ship footprint launcher, economy of scale in procurement, number of silos, number of rounds ready for launch, HAS capability, airlaunch and land launch capability

Over Umkhonto, VL Mica and Barak
Export potential and earnings, Sovereignty, airlaunch and land launch capability

All of these COULD be overidden by ballooning of costs and delays.

P1154

I don’t care about the boring old pragmatic worries over whether the airframe would actually have worked or whether a supersonic pegasus (B100) was possible or could carry enough water to actually operate at all or for a meaningful period of time; a supersonic harrier carrier capable and in the 1960s as well.

Plus it looked much prettier than any other STOVL design

It’ll be back to the times of the Phantom: RAF F35C will operate normally from land bases, but they’ll be expected to deploy on the carrier regularly and obviously in case of need.

A very interesting analogy and one with legs I feel. The F35 seems to have much more in common with the F4 than the F16. Of course in terms of commercial success that’d be a good thing for LM as well 🙂

I like the idea of E2s on CVF (I’m sure I’ve even posted to that effect on previous what if musings about CVF equipment) and the pooling with France thing sounds sensible (is that not what mainland Europe did with E3?) its just that I cannot see it happening in the medium term.

The problem with aiming for 2020 is that is when we will need to pony up for JCA.

Likewise the joint FAA and coastal command S3s make all kinds of sense. But will cost money.

All that said. I go back to my recent point. All of this planning ahead is exactly what is required. Its required in main building mind though rather than here.

As to Rivet Joint making the spams happy. Great. And as a slap in the face to previous administration. Also great. But TSR2 was cancelled for technical reasons (as much as we might wish it were not) and I wonder whether MR4 has a similar issue behind the scenes.

In my view its entirely reasonable to query cunning plans which involve spending lots of money now in order to potentially save in the future, and sad to say at the moment E2s don’t seem likely.

But ………. ONE of the reasons that we are in this hole is a lack of systemic forward planning.

No low-cost patrol vessels means expensive and expensive to run front line warships being used. I remember options for change leading to such a reduction in budget that a number of skimmers were alongside as the RN could not afford the fuel to send them to sea.

Big break in boat construction led to loss of design and management skills and hence cost overuns and need to buy in expertise for Astutes.

Constant short run and knee jerk (sorry UOR) procurement has led to use spending lots of money on what we do get.

Overspending (whatever the course) has led to entire capabilities being cut.

Mapping out a medium to long term procurement strategy seems eminently sensible to me.

This being amateur corner I’d have thought that anyone pointing out facts about any of the contracts already signed and costs already sunk would be most welcome. On which note: do we have any facts about MR4, what’s the big nasty in the future which has led to its cancellation whilst almost paid for and buying older platforms for SIGINT?