RimmerYou missed out teh Falcon 20 in EW role and Gulfstream in Phalcon configuration.
By the way, loving the signature badge! 😉
RimmerFormation flying? How many aircraft do you think need to fly in a formation, outside air shows?
You’re ignoring what I said about contract pilots. You’re also assuming that Oman doesn’t use any other training assets, & doesn’t buy any more trainers.
Pilots who know their names will be published tend to follow the official line, for good reasons.
OK, assuming contract pilots.
A) Not all them are
B) Surely they eventually want homegrown pilots
c) Need more then 1 pilot per plane
d) Will contract pilots fight in war?
Agree, pilots who know they are being published may be more diplomatic, but as it stands we have some solid official air force report to go by, by an independnet aviation magazine, as opposed to unofficial chats with journalists.
I have had quite a bit of unofficial chats to, but dont use them as sources…
RimmerYes. How many do you think they need? Their pilots tend to be long service, & they still have some foreign contract pilots, who come ready trained.
Already addressed.
No, I don’t have links. I have personal reports from a couple of journalists, who’ve been told this by Omani AF officers. AFAIK, they don’t have problems with the aircraft themselves.
4 Hawks. Assuming training/maintenence and the fact some training has to be done with formation lfying, this is hardley enough for their present fleet.
If we go with the most recent aviation report on RAFO in AFM, Oman is very happy with its F-16s.
Thats not hersay, that is qouting Omani officers.On the record.
RimmerLast I heard, Sarko was lambasting the DGA for losing some big sales through its insistence on lumping unrelated purchases together into ‘take it or leave it’ packages.
That is indeed what I was referring to.
Dont know if this is a case of DGA doing that again….
RimmerYes, but they aren’t necessarily working on nuclear capabilities, or threatening to wipe out other countries(or waiting for the 12th Imam for that matter).
Dont bet on it. Also, I dont think “waiting for the 12th Imam” is official Iranian government policy.
But we digress from the topic here….
Rimmerit does’nt matter what fleet he was referring to. They serve a particular purpose and hence they’re acquired from different nations who build them. That is not too difficult to understand.
And if you had read the AFM article that talks of the WoT in Pakistan, you’d have read that Pakistan recieved new Hueys, so they’re not going away too soon. They still operate some Lamas and those Mi-8s will be replaced by Russian Mi-17IVs.
You just want it to look like only the IAF has a zoo. When the zoo is in Pakistan of course, you make it sound like “hey its a different kind of zoo so how dare you talk about it !”
Look who’s talking. You don’t even know what helicopters your own nation has recieved from the US and you tell me that I’m not accurate. :rolleyes:
OK, so you have it there in black and white and I will qoute you
“it does not matter what fleet he was referring to”??????
So pointless me replying to you anymore right? You can just change the topic we discussed willy nilly?
How can one debate with you?
Do you even realise just how contradictory all your arguments are becoming?
Someone made a point about fighter fleets in an air force and you replied about an army helicopter fleet.
This is nuts.
:rolleyes:
Rimmerhave you seen Pakistan’s helicopter orbat ?
They operate Mi-8 and Mi-17IV (Russian), Ecureil (Eurocopter), Aerospatiale Lama’s and now there are more Fennecs in the offing, Cobras and Hueys (US), have been gifted some old Pumas from UAE, operate Westland Sea Kings (Britain) and are now getting Z-9 (China) for their navy.
They’ve also asked for the AH-64 Apache and the US has refused, whereas they may get AH-1Z Vipers and they’ve also evaluated the Eurocopter Tiger and were supposedly interested in the Agusta T-129 variant. Most likely that they’ve evaluated the WZ-10 as well since China is a big ally.
Is that streamlined enough for you ?
Er, if you read his post you will see he was referring to the fighter fleet.
In that sensehe has a very valid point, almost every air force in the world is more “streamlined” then IAF.
By the way, Lamas, Hueys and MI-8s are retired and/or in process of being retired.
Your also including dedciated naval helicopters.
Accuracy was never your strong point I guess.
RimmerOne would certainly hope so, but when you’re dealing with a government that has extremist ideologies, you can’t assume that they have the same concerns, as folks with cooler heads.
Without meaning to get too political, there are many other governments with “extremist” ideologies that manage to have very sane foreign and defence policies….
RimmerGood point.
Knowing how France likes to sell arms “packages”, it would not suprise me at all if Sarko is forcing Pak to take the French Marlin (Subs being an area where Pak has a choice) in order to get the green light for the MICA/Avionics package. Only time will tell.
RimmerThe key difference, of course, that future action in the region would likely see Iran being the targetted party!. The fact that a very real flashpoint potential exists for Oman is very clear.
I totally take that point Jonesy, but Iran was targetted in Iran-Iraq war, I genuienly think we overestimate Irans aggresive desires. They may have problems with many nations but they are not so stupid to try and make everyone their enemy.
RimmerWhat part of allies don’t you understand? Look at the current & planned AEW, transport & refuelling capacities of Omans friends & neighbours. For territorial defence, AAR isn’t needed, & AEW would be the overkill you complain of. For joint defence, there will be enough of everything available.
The Jaguars are old & worn out, dating from 1977. They’ve been heavily used. They’re past upgrading.
More F-16s has already been addressed. According to some reports, they regret buying them, & don’t want more.
The PC-9s & Hawks should be adequate. You don’t need anywhere near as many trainers as fighters.
Hang on, where did I say you need the same number of trainers?
Do you know how many Hawk two seaters they have?
The point I was making was that lots of people have been stating that an Iranian threat is what is driving this procurment, if that genuinely is the case, would not a small number of SAM, AEW and air rufellers go a long way in boosting their capability?
Yet they have chosen not to do this?
Do you have a link to “some reports” about Oman being unhappy with its F-16s? I have an in depth article by AFM Magazine stating they are very happy with them
RimmerThe hold a major defence supplier has over it’s clients, that’s the only hold BAE has over Saudia Arabia, even that is somewhat flimsy since they can just decide to buy eveything from the US if they choose.
Britain and Oman may have close military ties, lots of other coutnries do as well, so what? It’s no different from any other alliance and there are political considerations to all sales in the defence Industry, what you stated still doesn’t address the need to replace outdated and worn out equipment.
As I pointed out, this is not just repalcing outdated and worn equipment. If Oman wanted to simply replace the capability they are losing with the Jags they could have
a) Gone for a Jag upgrade
b) More F-16s
c) Half the number of Typhoons
All of the above would have been more then adequate to replace the Jags
My point is (again), this is a massive upgrade in capability, however it is not accompanied by other assets like AWACs, SAMS, air refuellers more mobility.
If they were really worried about Iran they would be upgrading other areas on a more urgent basis.
24 shiney new Typhoons will just be flying low level around sounds dunes on training missions for the forseeable future…
added later
Can Omans training fleet of PC-12s/Hawks even support a fleet of 12 F-16s and 24 Typhoons?
RimmerWhat an odd argument, what hold does the UK and BAE have over Oman for it to give billions away on a gift?
Perhaps the same hold BAE has over Saudia Arabia?
Britain and Oman still maintain vry close military ties, perhaps this is Oman’s “payment” for that support?
RimmerMaybe the Jaguar and F16 are enough for their defence needs but the Jaguar are old and need replacing. Why not go and buy further equipment on a like for like basis from an allie. That is often the reason given by Pakistan for purchasing equipment from China, albeit Pakistan has had less choice on the global market for many years. Certainly more F16 would of been just as useful but maybe they want to maintain defence procurement diversity as well.
We can quibble about the level of defence threat but the numbers they are talking about on a like for like basis are reasonable, Omans airforce will still be small in comparison to neighbours.
So whilst I agree that part of this is to furnish the UK with money and jobs they do have a reasonable defence requirement in that Jaguars are getting old and why not take the business to an allie maintaining procurement diversity.
I see the point you are making about diversity, US can change its attitude over night, but it is certainly not a one for one replcement for the Jags.
Firstly, one Typhoon is more capable then one Jaguar. I think we can all agree on that, and finally Oman has around 16 Jaguars, they are being replaced by 24 Typhoons.
Surely a buy of 12-14 would have sufficed?
Dont got me wrong, I am not arguing for the sake of it, and Oman has every right to buy whatever it deems right, but this massive increase in capability with no direct military threat is interesting.
Just like how UAE and Qatar suddenly really needed C-17s for their “humantarian lift” needs……
RimmerThe fact that Oman controls one side of the access point to the Gulf and Iran may not appreciate Oman allowing certain parties to use that access?. The strong potential for a flashpoint over gulf access is hard to miss surely?.
True, but was not that the case for past conflicts, despite that Iran never even threatened Oman
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