Dave HomewoodWhy take up valuable space in a museum when more deserving real aeroplanes can be preserved?
That’s a fair point, and is the point I was making about the Swordfish replica. However some museums look to create a period or a theme where replicas are the only answer if you want to see an example. So long as they are not neglecting real aircraft at their facility for the sake of a replica, I see no problem.
Flying replicas are fine, but to be honest, are the general public going to be able to tell the difference between most of the interwar fighter biplanes? I think not.
Perhaps if more replicas of extinct and forgotten types were to appear in public museums, they’d then become more recognisable and they’d project more meaning to the public? I think that’s the entire point of a replica, isn’t it?
IMHO, these planes lose their relevance to the majority of the public once people who remember the originals have passed on.
So anything in any museum over 80-90 years old is irrelevant? Nonsense. I am interested in old aircraft from two to three generations before my time, the relevance of them has not been lost on me at all. I have also been found medieval knight’s suits of armour interesting when visiting museums, both replica and real.
We don’t have space for everything either. The great crisis might come later on down the line in 50 years time when people are wanting to preserve real airframes, but museums are clambering for space. Mind you, better to scrap a replica than the real thing.
Er, why not just build a few more hangars to put them all in? Most msueums with stuff outdoors are planning and looking towards building rooves over their collection. Aircraft are designed to live outdoors and can do for some time, with care, till money is raised for a museum building.
Personally, I think it is better to preserve what we have, and if it means making up bits to preserve that aircraft, rather than make a replica, so be it. We can’t save everything, and in the future we won’t have room, so perhaps we should let the past be the past, and not constantly be rebuliding it in replica form.
We won’t have room? That’s a very bleak crystal ball you have there. There is plenty of space for museums.
Replicas have their place, especially outside, but what happens when that replica (flying or non flying) is 50+ years old? It’ll become a preservation issue in it’s own right…..
Easy, scrap it and build a replica.:D
There are a few replicas around still from The Battle of Britain. One here has been outdoors for decades. It’s still fine and has a new coat of paint applied every now and then.
Dave HomewoodThanks Alex. This is quite possibly the incident he recalled.
See the same thread on Planetalk.
Dave HomewoodThanks guys, I thought it sounded a bit odd too. I have wondered if it is an aerial but would that have been very visible in terms of the other Fury pilots noticing it on his plane and avoiding it? I thought they were quite thin.
I’m also wondering, as it was an air dispaly, if it were something rigged up specifically for the public display? Maybe to simular bombs being dropped they dropped a cable with a light on?
Who knows.
Steve, if you could ask your Hendon crew friend what he thinks I’d be very grateful, thanks. Especially regarding how thick the cable was and how visible.
For further discussion on this you can see my parrallel post at PlaneTalk.
http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=3509
Thanks again guys.
Dave HomewoodReplicas on static display in museums are great if they are filling a gap. There are several good ones in this country. The Bleriot XI at Wigram is superb. And who in their right mind could complain about all the replicas inthe Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre, one of the best museums on the planet.
But there is a limit – for example the Fleet Air Arm Association of New Zealand are based in a corner of the main aviation building at Auckland’s Museum of Transport and Technology. Unlike the other societys there (Bomber Command, Solent Society, etc) they didn’t have any aircraft to work on and represent their war. So they built a replica of a Fairey Swordfish. It’s not a bad replica at all, but the thing that irked a lot of people is this reasonable sized aircraft was displayed inside the main hangar, whilst genuine rare aircraft were stored outdoors in the sea air! That’s a bad idea in my books. A couple of those rare genuine aircraft are still outdoors. One at least looks beyond the point of saving.
So, so long as real aircraft are under cover first, and the replicas are accurate and fill a gap, sure, they’re great. Even better if they fly.
Regarding engines, a group at Omaka are now building replicas of extinct engines for replicas of extinct aeroplanes. They will look and sound right. Evenytually this will probably happen for bigger types like the Merlin and Allison, new builds just like the rest of the airframe.
Dave HomewoodDon’t worry now, I got the answer from the RAF Commands forum, thanks.
Dave HomewoodMike,
Yes the RAN do still have Seasprites but not for long as they hate them. The avionics package they chose was useless and they’re plannign to ditch them. Meanwhile the RNZAF and RNZN are very happy with their ones.
Dave
Dave HomewoodIt’s amazing how much discussion my question generated, I never expected such debate.
I think perhaps some here are thinking too much from the museum perspective. It’s not just about such-and-such a musuem has a so-and-so in storage so don’t bother going and retrieving another till that’s restored. That is not the responsibility of a collector – they are not obliged to do finish someone else’s work, are they?
The aircraft restoration and preservation movement is much broader than that and we all know that many people involved in collecting these days are very wealthy business people, some multi-billionaires.
There’s a lot less problem I’d imagine for them in trying to get a new wreck out of the wilderness than trying to wrestle a stored airframe from a museum. There have been some really nasty court battles over airframes leaving museums for collectors (the P-40E and Corsair formerly with Motat, later OFMC and now OS&RC are prime examples of a huge sh!t fight from the various parties who were involved in the original recoveries and attempts at restoration all claiming ownership.)
And if public money of a public museum has previously retrieved and stored an airframe, and the public have been told someday they’ll restore that plane for the museum, then it’s very disapointing that it later gets sold to some rich guy, often overseas, and while the museum absorbs the funds an asset is lost, along with public confidence in management.
If you have the money to go find a wreck, retreive it and rebuild it, I say there’s no problem. And meanwhile it’s already saved sisterships are still reasonably safely stored in museums awaiting their turns. I’d rather see that than have a museum lose an asset which is rebuilt to fly and could be lost in an accident, while the one in the tundra could also be lost to the weather, bushfire or whatever. That’s a lose, lose situation.
No doubt James and others will differ from my view.
Dave HomewoodI see your points and agree. My point wasn’t that we shouldn’t look after what’s already in captivity. My point was my question wasn’t about that, but about how much was left out there. That’s all.
I guess you’re right regarding Russia over the fact that German and Russian types are there, yes. But a lot of Hurricanes, P-40’s and other Allied planes have alsp come back from there and many more of them have been in preservation too.
Dave HomewoodThanks everyone for the interesting replies.
Despite how much has been collected and is safe in collections of museums and individuals, it seems there is still a fair bit out there. It puzzles me somewhat the comments of leave it there or forget and go buy something already rescued and undercover… I’m not interested in buying anything, I was just curious of whether much was still lying out in the tundra and the prairies.
Frankly it seems strange that collectors have risked their lives and lost fortunes dealing with the Russians, who are notoriously difficult to deal with, in order to save wrecks from there, when there are so many interesting wrecks in a much friendlier, civilised country as far as doing deals goes. You’re less likely to be murdered by the mafia in Canada over a warbird deal I’d think, as has happened in Russia. And the challenges of retrieving the aircraft would be about the same – these days a heavy lift chopper could bring almost anything back, surely.
Dave HomewoodSee here
http://uboat.net/special/movies/item/1
And Indiana Jones was made at the same time, not later, and Spielberg borrowed the sub and the set of Das Boot to save on his budget
Dave HomewoodDoes anyone agree that the chap playing the journalist who goes aboard with the crew looks like a young Clive Anderson? 🙂
Dave HomewoodIf you happen to get the Director’s Cut DVD, listen to the director’s commentary over the top of the film. In fact it’s both director Wolfgang Petersen and the actor who played the Captain. It’s fascinating to hear the lengths they went to to make the film. The worked on shooting for a year, which is extraordinary in itself, but the actors were told not to go into the sun at all outside of filming, and to all grow real beards, which is why their beards grow naturally longer and longer and why they all get pastier and pastier, it’s not clever makeup. It’s real.
They shot about three more hours that’s never been used apparently, as they originally hoped for a longer miniseries! They also discuss the technical aspects of the submarine replicas, etc and it’s amazing.
Plus, the author of the book who was the real captain worked with them on the film and the actor who played him had great admiration for him.
Dave HomewoodThis thread tkes the cake among stupid threads on this forum…
Climbing into other people’s aircraft without permission? If it were my aircraft I’d have you arrested, just as if someone were to climb into a car parked on the side of the road that wasn’t their’s. It’s just not on.
I fully understand and support museums that do not want the public clambering all through their staic exhibits, trapesing in FOD and filth. People don’t realise the damage they do and maintenance needed, even when being careful.
And if you have permission to go inside, and are being supervised or otherwise, what the hell sort of right do you have to start flicking switches and pulling levers? Common sense tells me that this is plain stupid and dangerous. Especially if there are more idiots of your ilk outside wiggling the prop, as I have seen on some flightlines! why do these fools have to manhandle everything, from flaps and ailerons to rudders and props?
People should have some respect! Look and don’t touch, and most of all LISTEN to the advice of the owner/guide.
Not sure if they were teasing but I remember sitting in a Tornado at Conningsby, being a school kid and twiddling with the controls. I was told not to touch anything black and yellow. I asked, (while pulling it) what would happen if it did I was told the handle was the ejector seat handle
Teasing? My God! Black and yellow handles are not there for a laugh. What sort of idiot who’s just been told by a professional not to touch such a handle then pulls it?????
Honestly, some mothers do have them.
Dave HomewoodThere are some fantastic photos here, brilliant thread. I really liked seeing the one of both Hurricanes tucked up behind the Lancaster, you don’t seem to see that often.
It is amazing how many schemes these few aircraft have worn, keeping the memory of many long gone wartime aircraft alive. But I wonder if anyone has details of the crews of the original aircraft? Eg, who was the crew of the original Mickey the Moocher, or the original Johnny Walker, etc, and where they were all form, their fates during the war, etc. Has anyone looked into and compiled that historic angle of the BBMF?
Dave HomewoodCadbury chocolates did the same thing with several famous TV characters James, taking the personas and actors but not using the names. Much to the TV writer’s chagrin, there was nothing they could do and no royalties paid.
I could tell you which TV characteres but you may think I’m obsessive.
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