troung“I’ve already described how was “For example 4th operation in Pandsher region – the mujahedin forces had in AA positions more than 200 DShK + ZSU + 30 Erlikon-Berle 20mm and other stuff”. Chechens had ZU-23, DShKs, different kind of MANPADS, and 20 “Shilka” system.”
Light AAA, machine guns and IR SAMs………..
“All tasks, that were given to federal Aviation Group in Chechnya were completed.”
They faced no aerial threat. And dropping bombs on peoples houses is hardly a hard task.
Still you can’t avoid the fact the RuAF is a shell of it’s former self. Most of the pilots don’t fly and the planes are in poor shape. Hell the airforce cannot even afford fuel and Russia is a huge oil exporter go figure. So you guys can talk on and on about MiG-29SMTs or what ever but bottom line is Russia can’t even keep it’s current planes in the air.
So you are the one who belongs in a mental hospital I guess.
troung“Ah, you mean that amazing 60’th-era airdefence and the country that was almost killed by sanctions. As was mentioned the Serbs didn’t … hell if you can’t remember this try to learn by heart, if this will not help, go to local doctor – I’m sure you could find one.”
Umm niether the Chechens or Afgans were sporting a modern air defense system. They were limited to light AAA and IR SAMs.
And Russia already lost to the Chechens once before in 1994.
Wake up the Russian air force is a pathetic shell of it’s former self. The pilots get little air time and the planes are in poor shape. So trying to pretend like somehow they are great for dropping bombs on complelty defensless nations is a joke.
troung“You weren’t referring to the size of the sale… just the fact that the customer was a third rate AF.”
A 3rd rate airforce will not be buying more then a handful. MiG-29s sell second hand in small numbers now. It’s been shown to be a very poor air plane in the face of Western models. The current nations buying it do so to show off in parades.
“So a country that goes into another country with a policy of “better dead than red” can’t even kill as many as the locals?”
Please prove the USA killed 4 million people idiot. But I doubt you have ever read about the Vietnam war at all have you? Just spreading propaganda here.
“The direct firesupport of Hinds and Frogfoots was much more effective than a JDAM could have been.”
No way. That does not even deserve commentary.
“Tests, not a one sided war.”
The MiG-29 has once again always failed in combat.
“Perhaps because a cold war superpower wasn’t supplying the enemy?”
Excuses excuses but bottom line is the MANPADs are not bringing down large numbers of USAF fighters and bombers.
“American airpower would have been useless if they hadn’t had the Northern Alliance on the ground. The NA forces moved into an area… the taleban could either mass up into a force to defend or it could retreat. If it massed up then it was bombed with airpower. If it retreated then the NA moved forward and gained more land and recruits. Without the NA there would be no reason for the Taleban to mass and therefore there would be no targets for the b52s. The Airpower would be useless.”
Sucks huh? The USA crushed the guys who beat the Russians. American air power was proven to be very deadly and accurate and able to support small groups of American troops in the face of large numbers of Taliban forces.
“A real army is easier to defeat than a guerilla army.”
The North Vietnamese armed forces had much more to fight with then the Afghans.
“You’ve heard all about the WVR tests with Germany with HMS and R-73… don’t you think BVR weapons would be tested too?”
To think none of those “we need F-22” articles ever mentioned the MiG-29 having comparable BVR. It does not compare at BVR to the F-15.
“If the local population supports that guerilla army then it is a case of taking on the guerillas and their logisitics chain.
“When a whole city has been barricaded and mined and booby trapped then what option do you have but soften it first?”
America did not carpet bomb Baghdad.
“Actually it is rather more capable now. They didn’t have the huge range of PGM weapons then they do now, nor did they have Blackjacks with conventional weapons in numbers enough to be used, The Mig-29 and Su-27 are rather more capable than the Mig-23 and Su-17 and Mig-21 aircraft that was used then. The Flanker could escort the Backfires all the way to targets and back.”
No they have not improved the MiG-23s and Su-17s were just taken out of service with no replacement. The Russian air force which barely flies now is worse off then it used to be.
“Oh, yes the Americans are so much better than the Russians.”
No duh, last time I checked the PAF made fools of the RuAF.
Screw it I’m just too lazy to respond to the rest of your pro Russia crap. Keep living in a fantasy that Russia is military power and not a pathetic shell of a nation.
troung“I’m sorry, Russia fought the first Gulf War? Interesting.”
No that they have not paid attention to how technology has left them behind.
I’m sorry dropping dumb bombs on a city is a low tech way to try and handle a guerilla threat and it is not effective in the least bit at stopping a guerilla army. All that does is add to recuitment and of course make the nation doing the bombing look real bad. Dropping dumb bombs in a city does not kill the guerillas just the opposite it adds to the guerilla problem.
At least PGMs can strike a target such as a TV station or bridge where yes people will get mad but not as mad as wiping villages of the face of the Earth becuase you cannot hit anything in any weather other then a bright sunny day. Also it is a lot more effective to use a JDAM to support ground troops then trying at it with dumb bombs and hoping to hit the rebels and avoid hitting your own troops. Maybe Russia does not care about killing it’s own troops as long as they can bomb a village full of women and childern in responce.
I shudder to think how bad Russia will do if they ever have to face a decent sized armed forces and a convertional war without nukes.
Oh yeah and Russian equipment was in the Desert Storm and it failed miserbly the same way it failed in Serbia.
“in Vietnam, by purely military terms, the Afghans were slaughtered by the Soviets, just like the Vietnamese were slaughtered by the Americans.”
Bad comparison. The North Vietnamese had a real military unlike the Afgans. There was a North Vietnamese navy, air force and army. The Afgans were religous students from muslim nations with much less training and equipment.
“Uh huh, they didn’t have ‘all weather’ strike capability so they lost in Afghanistan.”
Compare the preformance of the Russian air force in delibartly targeting civilains and then compare that to the USAF/USN with it’s all weather ability. Note that America has beaten Afganistan and air power played a huge role. And American air power in Afganistan is a lot better then what the Russians did. And before you comment that it was years later remember that Russia has only gotten weaker since then.
“You do know the Soviet sponsored government in Afghanistan lasted until 1992, don’t you?”
The South Vietnamese lasted until 1975 go figure.
“Uh huh, that must be why the Chechens have been reduced to nothing but road side bombs for 2 years straight now and haven’t managed a single victory in 4 years.”
A good deal of helicopters have gone down taking the crews and passengers with them.
Back to topic….
“During tests against an F-15 it was quite comparable in BVR combat when the F-15 was using Sparrows.”
What tests? The IrAF lost several MiG-29As to USAF F-15s which carried the AIM-7M.
“You probably killed more than 4 million people in Vietnam… you can talk.”
4 million people died all across Vietnam but that includes troops and civilains from both North and South. That also does not mention who killed who. Both the Northern and Southern army killed a good deal of innocent people and each other to add to that 4 million total.
“Hi resolution ground mapping radar. IR, TV, LGB and probably soon GPS/Glonass/INS guided bombs and missiles. What type of weapon or equipment does these american fighters have that the Mig doesn’t or can’t have.”
They have a working GPS weapons actually in service and not some program which is going no where. Then you have proven weapons and radars.
“For a small country a Fulrcum is perfectly adequate”
Adequate for what? Russia has a hard time even supplying spare parts for planes much less selling weapons that work like they are suppposed to. The planes are more then adequate to eat up a budget to try and get them to fly once a month, more then adequate to be AIM-120 bait.
The only good thing about the MiG-29 is the ejector seat, at least that is world class.
It’s pretty hard to take Russian weapons or tactics seroius seeing as they have proved to be all hype in conflict after conflict. Of course talking about these new MiG-29s is a joke becuase they are not entering service and have not and probably will not be exported anytime soon.
troung“What a snobby thing to say. Is money from first rate airforces worth more?”
I’m sorry 8 planes at 8 million a piece is not a big sale. MiG no longer makes big sales. And yes a big sale to a first rate air force is worth more then small sale to a third rate air force.
“And how much maintainence does each need during a 300 hour wartime period?”
The question should be could the MiG-29 get up in the wartime period in the first place? The ready rates of MiG-29s around the world has been nothing to brag about.
“What sort of need does the Russian airforce currently have for inexpensive all weather strike?”
To hit the target in all weather. But then agian real air power is a luxury and Russia is broke.
“Ex Soviet stores of LGBs and guided weapons lie unused while targets in Chechnia are leveled with unguided rockets and dumb bombs. “
Just shows how bad of shape the RuAF is in. They were sleeping in the first gulf war and of course did lose Afganistan.
“What is the point of all weather precision in a guerilla war?”
To hit the target in all weather. You might notice how Russia lost Afganistan and will lose Chechnia.
“The Flanker has not air to ground role because that is why the Airforce is upgrading over 150 Mig-29s for the role.”
I have been hearing that for quite awhile but it seems that nothing is and probably will actually happen.
“Except for the datalink that showed him the target in the first place and hasn’t disappeared.”
But the pilot of the MiG-29 is blind to other planes in the air.
Bottom line i would take any Western 4th generation fighter (M2K, F-16, F-15, F/A-18) instead of the MiG-29.
troung“In an 1-on-1 scenario?”
I would assume so.
“BVR: Those Russian AAM’s are sure not bad and have long range, about the Mica nothing much is known (real world performance). I say the Sukhoi wins, even though the French ECM is propably better.”
Neither the MICA EM nor R-77E has seen combat but while the last French BVR missile has made kills (Super 530D) the last Russian missile (R-27R/T) has not shoot down enemy fighters. So the French have a better “real world performance” then the Russians.
“WVR dogfight: Hard to tell. Seen them both at airshows and the Rafale is a really nice plane, but the Su is also very impressive. I call it a draw. The better pilot wins.”
Who knows? Hard to tell planes apart from air shows.
“WVR dogfight with HMS: first sight – first kill. Perhaps a slight advantage for the Sukhoi since I don’t think Magic is a good missile. But Rafale would win with Phyton IV and V”
Rafale can use the MICA IR which is years ahead of the R-550 Mk.2 I figure you think it will still be carrying.
For strike weapons the Rafale is much better.
But you do have to love comparing planes which the only things we hear of them are what they makers want us all to hear.
troung“@ truong: That’s what I’m saying: New Zealand and Ireland would definitely fit into this catetgory of nations with no need. What do you think of Albania, my “choice”?”
It’s hard to say who is the worst. For example Madagascar has a combta air force which has MiG-21MFs, but these do not fly so they must be among the worst even if their only potenial rival is the Comoro Islands who have no combat assets but only 3 VIP helicopters.
Another example is the Philippines with one F-5A/B sqaudron which is poorly armed but then again the MILF/MNLF/ASG are not challeging for control of the skies so thier air force still rules thier own skies right now. They use thier air force to support ground troops and thats its primary role.
Another example is East Timor who has no air force in spite of the fact Indonesia actually invaded them from the air and used air power to run the nations for over 20 years. I guess then they could be thought of as the worst even if Indonesia would never move on them anyways due to the UN.
I guess picking the worst would be nations who can’t live up to thier doctrine and aims along with of course keeping planes in the air. A nation which only uses transports due ot the lack of an external or internal threat can not be called worse then a nation whose jets don’t fly. Air forces grow with the threat which is why Taiwan or Japan have more modern planes in service then say Germany or Italy (no offense).
Plus no offense this is a pretty dumb topic unless we want to start comparing the N-22 to the BN-2 to find out which small nation has the worst planes.
troungMaybe you guys should pick nations which spend a good deal of money to buy fancy planes and then can not keep them in service or a nation in the face of a threat cannot even try and counter the enemy.
Nations develop air forces due to need/threat and of course money thats why Ireland does not have any combat assets they simply don’t need to waste money.
For example if Israel was an island near the Marshal Islands they would have no combat air planes becuase they were not needed.
There are a lot of nations wiht no fighters so should we all just sit around and compare their transports to see which ones are better?
troungAll I meant was they were close enough to be discussed in the same thread. Not that they were the same thing.
troung“If you hang a huge heavy bomb on it then the drag will increase, the weight will increase and the range will be not that good.”
500lb bombs have been used on MiG-21s in combat for the last 30 or so years. It’s not new, whats new is that several users have/are adopting LGBs of 500lb size.
” And if that happens then the first BVR missile will be attached to this plane cause why using a larger and better radar if no weapon can handle that range?”
Ok I hope I’m reading what you wrote right… The reason for the Grifo 7PG is to enhance SA. Right now the PAF has no BVR missile and it’s doubtful if the Grifo could handle one. In fact it’s basically armed the same as most PAF fighters in using the AIM-9P-4/L and R-550 Mk.2. The reason for having a Grifo radar is for the SA of the plane so it will not be fighting blind.
troungRight now the only AAMs it is touted as using are the AIM-9P-4/L and possibly/likely the R-550 Mk.2 (Magic II). I have not read to much in writing about the J-7PG using the PL-9 as for exmaple the AFM article only mentioned the AIM-9P/L.
I’m more intersted in the fact it has been shown with LGBs but without a LDP which would mean if it would use the bombs it would need another type of plane to do the lazing like the Mirage 5EF or F-16A/B.
troungMiG-21 2000 a younger brother to the LanceR C……..
troungErez;
Hey why not throw that in the LanceR thread so we can compare the upgrades?:)
I think they are similar enough that they can be discussed together. Plus I alreayd made a post on the 2000 upgrade in the LanceR one.
troung“the BAe Hawk trainer. Match countries and versions.
Countries: Abu Dhabi, Canada, Dubai, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Switzerland, Zimbabwe
Versions:Mk60, Mk60A, Mk61, Mk63A, Mk63C, Mk64, Mk65, Mk65A, Mk66, Mk67, Mk115
Abu Dhabi Mk.63/63A
Canada Mk.115
Dubai Mk.61
Kuwait Mk.64
Saudi Arabia Mk.65/65A
South Korea Mk.67
Switzerland Mk.66
Zimbabwe Mk.60/60A
And for the victory lap……
Indonesia Mk.53/109/209
Finland Mk.51/51A
Abu Dhabi Mk.102
Malaysia Mk.108/208
Oman Mk.103/203
Australia Mk.127
Yes I know I answered only 1 question :rolleyes: 😀 :rolleyes:
troungWell Israel has also offered a MiG-21 upgrade called the MiG-21 2000. As of now Cambodia, Zambia and Burma and some nameless nation have gone through with this.
Burmese J-7Ms have been fitted with the M-2032 radar, Python 3, Griffin LGB and other features from the LanceR. The Cambodian MiG-21bis has also had similar work done even though only 2 have been delievered due to money troubles. I don’t know what type of pods they use but neither has a plane other then these able to use LGBs so that could mean the Litening is there or coming in at least Burma.
IAI has done a lot of refit work for other MiG-21 users such as Ethopia, Uganda where they brought the planes back to flying status.
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