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  • in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2161054
    FBW
    Participant

    The 30 year Aviation Inventory and Funding plan is attached:
    http://ec.militarytimes.com/static/pdfs/2016-Annual-Aviation-Report.pdf

    Article about the USAF budget inability to support the congressionally mandated 1,900 fighter/attack aircraft past 2021 is posted over in the Military aviation news thread too. Some of the more interesting points from the 30 year aviation plan:

    The USAF and USN future inventories mention potential F-X and F/A-XX,

    A-10, F-15C/D, F-15E, F-16,
    F-22, F-35A, F-X

    Future research and development efforts beyond the 2017-2021 FYDP will focus on improvements to 5th generation aircraft and initial RDT&E for an advanced air superiority capability (Next Generation Air Dominance, NGAD

    The Navy is conducting analyses to inform a decision to include consideration for a family of systems consisting of mixes of manned and unmanned aircraft with advanced propulsion technologies, with varying stealth characteristics, advanced standoff weapons, sensors, and networks.

    Current 158 bomber fleet will stay level even as LRS-B enters the fleet (numbers for LRS-B were omitted from the inventory to keep in unclassified). B-2, B-52’s, and B-1’s will be upgraded.

    The USAF is planning on retiring some 600 fighter/attack aircraft from 2020-2026.

    in reply to: F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III #2161349
    FBW
    Participant

    I understand the Software Development Problems, what I am unsure about is if the structural problems, particularly with the B have been resolved, any update.

    Currently, the “B” structural life tests are being evaluated for second lifetime testing (16,000 hours). Previously, testing had to be stopped due to wing carry-through bulkhead failing at 9,000+ hours. The F-35C has wing spar/ titanium bulkhead failures that have halted lifetime testing. Overall, only the “C” is not meeting the 8,000 hour airframe life and fielded aircraft will require extensive modification. The F-35A is undergoing third lifetime testing (24,000 hours). The “B” is no longer the problem child of the litter. The “C” which is lagging behind the others in testing (though it will be the last to IOC) is proving to be challenging.

    in reply to: What will be the next country to order the F-35? #2161462
    FBW
    Participant

    The most readily available market would have been middle east. They could have sold at least 100 of these by now, however US has committed to not be the one to change the balance of power from Israel’s favour. Not sure what is going to happen when alternative “stealth” designs are available on the market, especially if Iran goes for one of these. I think US is missing an opportunity here.

    Assurances to Israel essentially preclude an F-35 deal with usual Middle East clients (Saudis,ect.) until the mid-2020’s at the earliest(Israel is pushing for a “never” clause- which is worthless anyway). Short of something that would upset the balance (like the unlikely sale of Chinese J-31 to Iran), the U.S. will not export the F-35 to the any Middle East clients outside of Turkey and Israel.

    in reply to: F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III #2161518
    FBW
    Participant

    Do you have a source for that?

    Reading the FlightGlobal article one gets the impression that there is a delay:

    HASC March 23rd hearing on the F-35. The lots 9 & 10 contract negotiations have been ongoing for over a year now.

    Also if this is for a/c delivered in 2015 and 2016, isn’t it a bit odd that they have not yet agreed on the contract? Since he refers to “value for taxpayers” one does get the impression that price is somehow involved as factor in the “dragged-out” negotiations. (and why do they use the term “dragged-out negotiations” if everything is proceeding according to plan as you seem to imply…?)

    No, the Lot 9 & 10 won’t start deliveries until mid 2017-2018. (production was about 2 months behind schedule for Lot 7) , Lot 8 deliveries are starting now.

    Edit- sorry didn’t answer the second part of your question. One snag is the delay in 3F configuration. Lot 10 is being held back until they have assurances that 3F will be ready.

    in reply to: F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III #2161550
    FBW
    Participant

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35-block-3f-test-schedule-slips-as-lot-9-10-contra-425713/

    Hmm, is it getting harder to reduce the price further? Or is there another reason behind this?

    Does not have to be either. The contract negotiations were due to be wrapped up this month. Lots 9&10 are being negotiated together. Those two lots represent a large number of aircraft (150+). Even if the contract is not finalized for a month or two, long lead items are already funded for both lots.

    in reply to: The PAK-FA News, Pics & Debate Thread XXV #2162244
    FBW
    Participant

    Luneburg lens as a radar reflector is specifically arranged to direct the waves maximally out back to the source whereas IRST internals are not set to reflect waves back out at all. Your shape insinuation was not reflective of reality. Of course an untreated IRST does give out a radar return, but T-50’s IRST is not untreated as the patent shows.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]246119[/ATTACH]

    Something about reality….. Any spherical shape will reflect back toward the source, the luneburg is just the optimal shape. Looking at the IRST internals, I think you are making a leap of faith not a statement of fact that the internals will not reflect any RF energy not absorbed. It is not just the shaping of the window but the rear of the unit. Treating the IR window will reduce the RCS, but the shape is an issue. There are, as I stated in the previous post, good reasons for FoV and optics to shape the IRST as the OLS 35 is, ideal RCS is not one of them.

    in reply to: The PAK-FA News, Pics & Debate Thread XXV #2162286
    FBW
    Participant

    Familiar shape, huh? Hope you’re not being serious now… You are aware of the fact that Luneburg lens is specifically designed to maximize the radar return, aren’t you?

    Again, No. The lens itself does not maximize radar return.

    in reply to: The PAK-FA News, Pics & Debate Thread XXV #2162291
    FBW
    Participant

    Shape of a Luneburg lens is not at all indicative of the radar signature of an IRST ball.

    No, it isn’t per se, but your thinking of just the other shape of the IRST. What does a Luneburg lens do, and why is it shaped as it is?

    lectromagnetic wave doesn’t reflect from the skin of the lens, but from the inside. A ball-shaped Luneburg lens has RCS hundreds of times larger than similar sized metal ball.

    The lens itself is not, it is a LENS. When containing metal to reflect the RF energy the Luneburg lens can be used as a RCS enhancer, the shape focuses the RF energy on the metal cap (a luneburg reflector). So, when you have lenses (correction, usually mirrors) on an IRST that reflect Infrared wavelengths on a focal point, I’d be willing to bet that RF energy would reflect pretty well off the some parts of the FPA.
    Basically, there is a very good reason that it makes sense to cover the IRST sensor head when not in use (thought the shape itself is problematic), or use materials that will block RF wavelengths. The faceted surface used on EOTS is probably not ideal for optics (not to mention that the light is bent four times, refracted off mirrors and prisms before the FPA).

    in reply to: The PAK-FA News, Pics & Debate Thread XXV #2162424
    FBW
    Participant

    You know, somehow I find this funny, because you have a huge glass from the canopy that is not faceted, and suddenly designers are worried of a small section of glass that must be faceted.

    You know how that mess is called?

    Different suppliers.

    It is not just that the facets help reflect the RF energy away or that the indium-tin oxide treatment (the tint to western canopy treated with HAVE glass, HAVE glass II, etc) that absorbs some. The crucial thing is not to allow the RF energy to pass through and get a strong return off things like: metal in cockpit, HUD, or the perfect reflecting surface of an IR camera.

    Pls do not post such practical and logical line of thought.
    It will only confuse all the RCS expert on different forums..

    The only thing logical about it would be the illogic of treating one surface but not the other. And for some who think that something “small” like the IRST ball couldn’t possibly have that much effect on RCS, all I can say is that is delusional. Look at what a luneburg lens is (familiar shape, huh), the look at the size of it fitted to the outside of an aircraft. The physical size does not determine the radar reflectivity.

    I would guess the Canopy and IRST ball have been, or will be treated with whatever the Su-35’s Canopy is treated with.

    in reply to: F-22 news and discussion thread #2163918
    FBW
    Participant

    Now you guys contradict yourselves a bit.. Is the stealth design determined by shape or by internal structure, in your books? And if you answer “both”, then which one is dominant?

    Shape, but not all of the RF energy can be redirected. This is not an area that I’m well versed in but I can point you to a simple explanation (not a scholarly article- more a “stealth for dummies” more my speed in this topic)
    http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_021.pdf

    The idea of stealth is to reflect the RF energy back in some very discrete angles, as far as I understand it. That means you get almost no return in all except few peaks which are then extremely high. These angles have to be avoided during the mission..Second, it is about absorbing the radar energy.. that means all those features which are invisible to the naked eye (honeycombs, composites, various special coatings, RAM) – but these can be applied even to a flying barn door..

    The problem with the F-117’s shaping is twofold: 1. It is not aerodynamic 2. as the aircraft maneuvers, some of those facets become flat surfaces pointed right at the antenna.
    The idea is to reduce reflectivity to a few peaks, those are treated with RAM. Not all surfaces (like leading and trailing edges) have enough RAM, nor are all surfaces reflective at all wavelengths so the materials and shaping of internal structure is important as well.

    Back to the original question, which of that is dominant? If you say shape, then the F-117 cannot be less “stealthy” than F-22 because the smooth curves of the F-22 feature so many angles to provide at least small reflection from that it’s nearly impossible to find any optimum other than head-on (which is obviously optimized to the greatest extent). If you say “structure”, then, of course, you can design even a Gripen to be stealthy, all it takes is to retain the shape and let radiation be absorbed in internal honeycombs.

    Yes, the F-117 can be less “stealthy” and by reports is less so. The second part of this quote is silly. Treating an aircraft like the Gripen, or F-16 with RAM and incorporating RAS materials and techniques into areas like the wings can reduce RCS considerably but it isn’t possible or practical to build an aircraft with enough to convert all RF energy,

    Here is the article about TACIT blue which explains the difference between the faceted shape of the F-117 and the use of Gaussian surfaces in subsequent designs.

    http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1996/August%201996/0896tacit.aspx

    in reply to: Gripen E unveiled #2164067
    FBW
    Participant

    If I have to go to war over hostile territory with 3 tonnes of bombs and missiles and expect to fight enemy fighters along the way, I would take the f-16v over the gripen e everytime.

    Not sure it would matter, they would both be subsonic and 4-5g limited with that load out. As least the Gripen E has a more modern IDAS with the GaN MFS. The F-16V does not even include the block 60 Falcon Edge EW system.

    in reply to: Gripen E unveiled #2164075
    FBW
    Participant

    The Gripen E is an exercise to modify a lightweight fighter design to match medium fighter types such as f-16, Typhoon, rafale and super hornets. You can cram all the latest gadgets into it but it would still have performance deficiencies compared to “real” medium sized fighters. Saab could throw all the marketing gimmicks to highlight all the advanced “add ons” (aesa, EW, irst, meteor) on the gripen e, but people will realise those “add ons” could also be integrated onto other current medium fighter platforms, and it is not exclusive to the Gripen e.

    Yes and no, the Gripen series, by necessity, demonstrates conformity with both area ruling and sears-haack body shaping. Lightly equipped, the Gripen will match, or even out perform some more powerful fighters. The issues come with realistic warload and weight growth. The F-15, with it’s mach 2.5 theoretical speed, had less optimal supersonic shape that the air defense diesel F-4. Another reason why eyeball aerodynamics don’t work.

    in reply to: Gripen E unveiled #2164079
    FBW
    Participant

    from Mspheres post in F35 thread,
    on SH cost “airframe $33 million, two F414-GE-400 $4.8 million ea, avionics $9.3 million, the rest is support and ancilliary equipment”.

    Conclusions
    Airframe still makes up bulk of cost

    The problem with that quote is that in the case of the SHornet ancillary equipment includes government furnished equipment like the radar, ejection seat, EW system, ect. The costs of the Super Hornet are pretty well documented as the PAUC and the APUC are not too far apart. The Super’s development costs were relatively low by modern fighter standards. But the Super, with the EW system and the AESA and other government furnished equipment still costs in the high 70’s to low 80 millions during the multi-year procurement blocks.

    in reply to: F-22 news and discussion thread #2164082
    FBW
    Participant

    Quite on the contrary, I have seen claims that the Hopeless Diamond is by far the most stealthy one due to presence of few concentrated angles contrary to smooth surfaces of the F-22 or F-35.. The only problem is that it was designed without any compromise towards aerodynamics which didn’t cope too well with the air superiority role..

    Go figure.. but this explanation does make sense to me..

    Right after the proof of concept for the F-117 flew (HAVE BLUE), computing power allowed for LO properties to be developed beyond the mathematical theories of Pyotr Ufimtsev. That led to Tacit Blue that proved that airframes with curvature could meet or exceed the RCS of the “hopeless diamond” and be more aerodynamic. First the B-2 (with the classic all aspect RCS shape), then the F-22 developed on this, and the advancement of RAM and RAS, learning to build structures that radiation could pass into and be absorbed such as the internal honeycomb common in most modern fighters wings.

    As to the “stealthier” question? The F-117 had a lower RCS from some angles, but the problem with the angular shape was that certain angles were exposed to reflect. The development of planform alignment with curvature and internal RAS that trapped radiation as well as RAM that was both more durable and had better absorption properties at higher temperatures was critical to the F-22. The issue still facing LO aircraft today (which answers the oft asked question of why there aren’t stealthy AAM missiles) is that most RAM becomes reflective as temps rise.

    in reply to: Gripen E unveiled #2164309
    FBW
    Participant

    The highlighted area above is the MultiFunctional Antenna GaN AESA to be used as RWR, directional data links and possibly (?) active radar, the latest is just out of a drawing from a SAAB presentation.

    active radar huh? why because GaN antennas are the new buzzword so obviously the EW system can be used as an active radar? No, the highlighted above is the QRT units front and rear and the power supply. Using your head, by looking at the size of the QRT unit, how useful would it be as an active radar?

    Is directional GaN EW suite & directional datalinks 6 gen? Perhaps since some of it obviously isn’t present in “5”gen. Perhaps 6gen is not determinated by the airframe but rather what’s on the inside of an available flying aircraft?

    Directional data links are critical for any fifth generation aircraft, that is why the two in service both have them. The GaN EW system is critical, either you have some aspects of LO or you need an active protection system jammer/DFRM. That capability in the US will be off platform, part of the NGJ program. While the AN/ASQ-239 AN/ARL-94 capabilities are highly classified, open source material mentions active RF countermeasures. The major difference in their approach to jamming is that the two US fifth gen use their main AESA arrays for narrow beam jamming rather than a system like spectra or Saab’s new GaN EW system, it would not make sense to design a LO aircraft and then install such a system. Two very different approaches to survivability.

Viewing 15 posts - 1,816 through 1,830 (of 2,935 total)