FBWIs that the grand sum of your reply? Can’t refute the argument so resort to mud-slinging?
Says it all really.
So long as the source comes from: POGO, Sprey, Giovanni de Briganti, yes. No more reply is needed. Simply put, you can pull source information from where you choose, but it says a considerable amount about what you are willing to believe. I would have the same attitude about someone posting an article from Loren Thompson and claiming it was 100% objective.
Hey, feel free to accept articles that suit your views. I just prefer to shape my opinion from multiple source to obtain a more objective picture.
Edit- For those who are unfamiliar with POGO, their 30 year history includes: attacking the M-1 tank (arguably the most successful post-WWII tank), the M2 Bradley, the AMRAAM, F-22.. on and on. Some of the most successful DoD programs of the last 30 years came under attack by POGO. Worse of all, their arguments are absurd, google the POGO analysis of the F-22.
FBWRight, I did a quick internet search for the NATO order of battle in the 80’s. Going for the late 80’s (late 1989) the total number of F-16s in Europe (including USAF stationed aircraft) was 762.
That is not a small number , but I wonder how many of those were around during the mid eighties, ie 1984-5. Should we say about half that? i.e. about 400 or so F-16s in Europe during the mid 80’s.
How many MiG-29s during those times? Does anyone have a figure?
You are missing the TACAIR reinforcements assigned to NATO from CONUS (9th airforce): six squadrons of F-15’s from Langley and Eglin, and perhaps as many as nine squadrons of F-16’s. Not counting the National Guard and Reserve squadrons assigned to NATO.
I can tell you there were 420+ Mig-29’s assigned to Frontal aviation in Germany, Czech, and Poland.
Edit- I see you have some US based F-16 included. I have 630+ F-16’s based in Europe (not all assigned to active squadrons), there were 200+ F-16 A/C in the 9th Airforce. Some Reserve and National Guard squadrons had NATO mission as well. Had war broken out, USAF alone probably would have had some 500 F-16’s in Europe.
FBWI thought most of the Soviet Su-27 operated in PVO units…
There were regiments of Su-27 in VVS service attached to the fighter divisions in: Baltic military district, Kiev military district, Moscow, Carpathian, Far East district, etc.
There were at least 4 regiments of Su-27 assigned to the Western TVD that could have been used against CENTAG (Questionable whether all would have been available over the central front in the event of war, at least one of the two regiments in Kaliningrad could have) .
Southwestern TVD had another 2 regiments of Su-27.
FBWSurprise, surprise.
More dirt on the USAF fixing things to get their little pet through the gate.
I’m particularly interested in this bit:
Is this true? If so, why is the general in question not already in jail?
POGO…….enough said.
FBWI think on a tactical level, one needs to count how many F-16s the MiG-29 would encounter in the european front. Throughout the 80’s you need to think hard about how many F-16’s were in Europe.
Madrat is correct, there was not a single su-27, nor Mig-31 unit in the Soviet frontal aviation units in Germany, Poland, etc. the nearest SU-27 unit was in the Leningrad military district. (Kaliningrad possibly as well?)
There’s also some conflicting information in how operational the early SU-27 units were prior to 1990. I have seen sources that they were still working in the suitability of the radar prior.
FBWRegd. the F-35, they were right pretty much about everything, thus far… I am not gonna go any deeper on this topic as this ain’t an F-35 thread..
Very detailed answer as expected, you brought the F-35 up. But I agree, I don’t want to discuss it here either. Besides, I doubt you have much to bring to the table in that discussion anyway.
FBWI agree, in general.. That is the reason why sources like Kopp or Sprey are constantly ridiculed even if what they claim usually turns out right.
BTW, in that case you should also agree with what the pilot had to say about the F-35, shouldn’t you? 😉
Sorry, I have to get an answer on this one. Exactly what have Kopp and Sprey been right about? The reason they are ridiculed is that evidence does not bear out their claims. Go back and read Sprey’s comments on: the F-15, the Amraam, the F-22, the Typhoon. He is delusional, and you have to love how he never corrects any source that credits him as the designer of the F-16, though he was NOT on the design team.
In truth, YOU think that their claims are borne out based on what you want to believe about the F-35…. based on their track record, good luck.
FBWIt wasn’t bad… it was f__king awful! Worse than awful given the scenarios they were being fired in.
I know. Its kicking around the forum somewhere. IIRC Pk was south of 20%. 14% maybe? Can’t be sure though.
Indeed. But given the timeframes of discussion here, we’re talking early AMRAAMs… which obviously had to be an improvement on the AIM-7 which they replaced, right?
No Amega, none of the above is accurate. Based on various sources there have been between 15-20 AMRAAM launches for 10 kills since it’s first use. Also not figured in is that in one case there were multiple missiles launched at the same target, only one counts as a hit.
As far as the scenerios, many were as unfavorable for a successful intercept as possible. Consider the 3 Amraams launched at a MiG-25 violating the no-fly zone. Tail chase aspect on a target flying higher and faster, worse possible launch parameters.
And frankly, your assessment of the Aim-7 is far too negative as well. Again, people tend to lump the success of all sparrow variants together as if they were close to the same missile. The AIM-7M was far more successful than the early variants.
FBWI just found his insights very interesting, and much more interesting than someone saying plane X is the “best” ever, which we tend to have quite a bit on this forum…
I would say that I’ve rarely seen the plane x is the “best ever” arguments made, at least not from any posters who frequent regularly and stay long enough. Having said that, I enjoyed the article. I would agree with Andraxxus that pilots tend to find fault with the “other guys” ride while generally praising their own.
There has been quite a few articles from pilots comparing the Mig-29 and the F-16. In them, there is about an even split for which aircraft the pilots claim is more maneuverable, more powerful. There are a few things that are consistent in the reports:
1. The Mig requires constant trim corrections, and in general the hydraulic controls felt sloppy (constant attention to fly)
2. The BVR capability of the Mig was nonexistent in reality due the complexity of the firing sequence, and that the Mig-29’s radar could only lock on one target at a time.
3. Poor navigation system
3. The Mig’s ability to override the 26* AOA limiter was a big advantage in the vertical, loop manuvers, etc.
4. The variable geometry inlets on the Mig are an advantage at higher speeds, alts. obviously.
I have a feeling some of the Eagle drivers who’s opinions about DACT with F-16 have been posted on forum would disagree with the pilot’s conclusions about the F-15, too.
FBWI’ve got a great idea – lets make all attack aircraft… even better, lets make all attack and carrierborne aircraft in the future single engined.
So any failure of parts or damage will result in an airframe loss and potentially pilot loss too.
[/sarcasm]
Two engines is no guarantee, the F-15E has suffered 2 non-combat related losses over hostile territory (Libya, Iraq) and several mishaps resulting in losses during ops in Southwest Asia. That is out of a relatively small fleet of F-15E’s.
I had a friend at P&W show me FOD and birdstrike tests on the F-135, I can tell you that modern engines are incredibly robust (what with frozen turkeys shot at them, etc). I would be curious to see the class A mishap rate for F-100 powered F-15 vs F-16 caused by engine failure. Unfortunately, it appears that the Air Force safety center took down their pdf. related to these.
FBWAnd Pierre Sprey is at it again, the Typhoon is “relatively unmaneuverable” and now he’s designed the F-15 as well as the F-16:
http://rt.com/op-edge/192592-eurofighter-isis-jets-airstrikes-military/
(note- I fully realize that RT is not credible, the article is posted for a bit of laughs)
FBWDisagreeable but not really shocking, nationalism is universal, no one wants to see their nation perceived as the threat. The use of the “enemy at the gates” has been very effective for Putin as it has been for many in history.
The U.S. Is any easy target for those looking to rally support, not entirely without justification. This flap over flyovers is a bit of kabuki theater. Same as tracking boomers at sea. Lots of drama, little real substance.
The problem is that fun and games end when military flights turn off transponders in the very congested airspace over Europe put civilian air traffic at risk.
FBWInteresting, thanks.. would love to read some details, if available..
http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2009/P7837.pdf
http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100927-065.pdf
http://www.leyden.com/gulfwar/air.html
There are more, the problem is that air to air kills notoriously difficult to document accurately. The two kills by “cheese” greater on Jan 17 have been documented as an aim-7 and ground kill, or two aim-7 kills.
Alternatively IQAF claimed at least five kills including a F-15C. The problem is that all F-15 tail codes are accounted for. That does not rule out the possibility that several coalition aircraft were damaged and returned to base.
I would recommend reading the account of Col. Cesar Rodriquez, sort of puts the conventional wisdom of the gulf war being a “turkey shoot” to the test. The Iraqi pilots were both experienced and brave. Tough to win when the enemy has the high ground, metaphorically speaking.
FBWThis situation is rather irrelevant as it is the Sparkvark credited with the kill of the Mirage.
Thus, my original question still stands: did at least some of the F.1EQ shotdowns in 1991 occur during mutual fights or was it a turkey shoot at defecting IrAF Mirages?
Yeah, two in one night by the same pilot on Jan 17, 1991. One by aim-7 the other a maneuver kill. One other aim-7 kill on opening night. Two more by aim-7 on Jan 19. This was long before the exodus to Iran began.
FBWThe west is waging economic war on Russia; Russia is fighting a Holy War against Nazis and the United States, ?”
Like, really: wake the **** up to what is happening in this world.
You were doing well there for a second, then your crazy slipped out, might want to tuck that back in. IT’S AN AVIATION FORUM, it is possible to discuss and share ideas without lapsing into nationalistic rhetoric, baiting, and attacking various nationalities.
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