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  • in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2126993
    FBW
    Participant

    Read it, was very careful NOT to use ramjet but throttleable rocket motor. Obviously the Aim-120 and Meteor aren’t identical. The point was larger NEZ does not translate to greater range.

    Edit- I get your point, and agree. Was attempting to illustrate the point with a theoretical example (as you couldn’t have identical soild fuel motors with one being single pulse and the other throttle-able) Doesn’t exist.

    Ryan and Haavarla posts confuse the greater Potential WEZ of the Meteor and greater NEZ, with max possible range. Obviously, the former it tactically relevant the other largely useless outside of marketing.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2126996
    FBW
    Participant

    Exact opposite is true? Please tell us how you reached that conclusion, please.

    Common sense and reading.

    Rmax quite simply is maximum distance that the missile can reach it’s target. The missile’s energy is altitude+speed. Take two theoretical missiles with the exact same amount of propellant, same drag and lift coefficients, weigh etc. They are identical except, one has a throttle-able rocket the other a single pulse motor. They are going to have the exact same Rmax 1 (reaching a non-maneuvering target at maximum possible distance), the difference is how they get there. The single pulse rocket motor will have greater kinetic energy initially, the throttleable motor will have greater potential energy throughout most of the flight given the same profile and altitude.(should say “could have” assuming missile is conserving propellant)

    The difference is in Rmax 2 (a target with a changing velocity vector), the single pulse motor may not be able to catch up with the target, or a change in target aspect will force the missile to change direction losing energy and therefore max range. The missile with a throttle-able motor can conserve energy allowing it change velocity.

    In the context of the Meteor and the Aim-120, the larger NEZ speaks to it’s ability to remain powered for a longer duration. That does not translate to longer range. MBDA is careful in their claim “AGAINST AN AGILE, EVADING TARGET, METEOR’S NO-ESCAPE ZONE—THE AREA WITHIN WHICH, IF A MISSILE IS LAUNCHED, THE TARGET CANNOT KINEMATICALLY AVOID BEING HIT”, they specifically mention it’s performance against a maneuvering target as this highlights the great advantage the Meteor has over contemporary single pulse motor AAM’s.

    It is a bit academic, but yes, an Aim-120D could have a longer maximum range flying a ballistic trajectory against a non-maneuvering target. The WEZ would be always changing on a maneuvering target (NEZ as well). The Meteor’s biggest advantage is the WEZ will be greater in a variety of target aspects and speeds, and the NEZ as well.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127003
    FBW
    Participant

    So while its difficult to assert any NEZ range of Meteor at this point, i think its safe to say it has a better range

    Exact opposite is true. It is difficult to assert positively the superiority of the Meteor or the latest Aim-120’s in Rmax. There is no question the Meteor has a larger NEZ than any other current AAM.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127009
    FBW
    Participant

    So why does it say ‘compared to missiles of its type’ plural? And we are again talking about an article in March 2008 that say ‘kinematic performance’.

    Your making assumptions, one can’t simply cherry pick quotes and information out of context. Here’s the actual quote:

    “AGAINST AN AGILE, EVADING TARGET, METEOR’S NO-ESCAPE ZONE—THE AREA WITHIN WHICH, IF A MISSILE IS LAUNCHED, THE TARGET CANNOT KINEMATICALLY AVOID BEING HIT—IS THREE TIMES LARGER THAN THAT OF A CONVENTIONAL SINGLE-PULSE ROCKET WEAPON IN A HEAD-ON ENGAGEMENT, AND FIVE TIMES LARGER IN A TAIL-CHASE

    .

    https://mbdainc.com/farnborough-air-show-preview-mbdas-meteor-cruise-missiles/

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127077
    FBW
    Participant

    NEZ is a zone where the target is unable to outrun a missile by waiting for it to run out of fuel..

    To be pedantic, the no escape zone is where the target cannot defeat the missile by kinematics.

    But really, I don’t see how claiming that the Meteor’s NEZ is nearly equal to the Aim-120’s Rmax is productive. It isn’t true (based on released information), and neither figures are constants.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127086
    FBW
    Participant

    And when it says ‘3 to 6’, you would assume ‘6’ applies to less capable MRAAMs and exactly what MRAAM could it be talking about in 2008 that had a range of significantly under 50km?

    No, in the literature the “3 to 6 times the NEZ” refers to a head-on vs rear aspect engagement. The biggest advantage for the ramjet meteor is that it maintains it’s speed for a longer duration. That’s why I said the WEZ for the Meteor probably looks significantly different than for the AMRAAM.

    In the ideal engagement scenario ( target heading 180* -head on, positive shooter pitch, high altitude, high shooter velocity, low target velocity, 0* off boresight) I wouldn’t expect much difference in NEZ between the two (and the -120D actually claims a longer Rmax). Once target aspect, altitude, velocity, and boresight angles become less than ideal, the Meteor would be far superior.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127177
    FBW
    Participant

    Frankly I doubt MBDA would have followed a radical change in propulsion with ramjet if the gain was not significant against the rocket motor option. Because you add air with the fuel meteor will burn longer than powder only.

    I would expect the Meteors WEZ to look a lot different than the Amraam. No doubt the Meteor’s range is less dependent on target aspect than one powered by a duel pulse rocket.

    Personally not questioning the rationale behind the ramjet powered Meteor, just exaggeration of some posters. The quote from Atlantic Trident about the Typhoon/Meteor combo’s effectiveness illustrate the potential of the Meteor.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127198
    FBW
    Participant

    hmm, must be very inefficient, indeed.. that is probably why the NEZ of Meteor is almost larger than the kinetic range of the AMRAAM..

    Hmm, are we speaking in the usual hyperbole again? Or are you privy to the highly classified missile envelopes to both the Aim-120D and the Meteor? Come on, do you even know what NEZ is?

    The published ranges are actually similar, the NEZ of the Meteor is much larger according to MBDA claims, but as per former discussions, there is no consensus which Aim-120 model MBDA was using to compare. Safe to say a missile which is powered in the endgame is going to be more effective at the edges of it’s range and in a tail chase (tail aspect shot) but…..

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127359
    FBW
    Participant

    I don’t think there are any more ways this can be stated. There is no obfuscation, it has been stated in clear language:

    Another key aspect of the missile is it is designed from the beginning to be employed on and off-board. It can be fired by one aircraft and delivered to target by that aircraft or the inflight data link can be used via another asset – air or ground based – to guide it to target

    http://www.sldinfo.com/building-a-21st-century-weapon-the-case-of-the-meteor-missile/

    Aimed at meeting the needs of a network centric environment, Meteor can be operated using third party
    targeting and third party target engagement, enabling the pilot of tomorrow to have the most
    flexible weapon system.

    http://www.sldinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Meteor_ds.pdf

    For mid-course navigation, the weapon can
    use its own inertial navigation system combined with
    information provided by the launch aircraft, or by
    any other friendly aircraft, via the two-way datalink.
    During the final, or terminal phase, the missile’s
    active radar detects the target and guides it to impact

    .

    https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0186cc2a_1143_ec82_2ef2bffff37857da.pdf

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127371
    FBW
    Participant

    ime will tell , but I have definitivelly not heard or seen anything that would suggest METEOR allows third party guiding and control . The ” can be operated using third party data …” applies already to several AAM outthere , as demonstrated amongst other with a MICA ER via Link 16.

    The point of TWDL and the so called “net enabled weapons” are: retargeting, better data on weapons position vis a vis target, and guidance by third party. As the below links show, the “shooter” does not have to provide the guidance. It can be off-board.
    http://www.sldinfo.com/the-weapons-revolution-continues-mbda-shapes-a-way-ahead-for-strike-platforms-in-the-kill-web/

    MBDA is currently making significant progress with two such weapons, the Meteor air-to-air weapon and the SPEAR 3 air-to-ground weapon. Both of these weapons have interactive data links and the capability to shift from a particular weapons platform, which launched it to another platform able to direct the target path.

    http://aviationweek.com/awin/net-enabled-weapons-drive-sea-warfare-change

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127436
    FBW
    Participant

    “Meteor can be operated using thid party data” mean, I think , the guidance system can accept input originating from third party data , but still passed-on by the launching plateform. Or is there more evidence to suggest otherwize ?

    The advantage of a two way datalink is exactly that, the Meteor can receive target data from a platform other than the launch aircraft.

    in reply to: 2017 F-35 news and discussion thread #2127480
    FBW
    Participant

    http://thediplomat.com/2017/05/taiwan-pushes-for-sale-of-f-35-fighter-jets/

    Will they get them or not?

    I guess not — however with Trump you never know. Friend today, enemy tomorrow…

    If the “good relationship” between Trump and Jingping suddenly turns sour, I would not be surprised if Trump turns around and says “why don’t we sell some F-35 to our good friends in Taiwan”.

    On verra.

    Highly doubtful, two previous administrations have balked over new F-16’s. Don’t you follow Trump on twitter? He and Xi are best friends 😉

    In all reality, congress is unlikely to upset status quo barring a dramatic policy shift.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015 #2127645
    FBW
    Participant

    Is the meteor a network-enabled weapon? Can an F-35 guide it with link-16?]

    It is, but the missile data link is separate from legacy Link-16 network terminals. Link-16 messages do support networked weapons:
    https://www.idlsoc.com/Documents/Symposiums/IDLS2010/Main/Day1/D1_3_M_rQUaRfq_1_Dr_Chuck_Wolfe.pdf

    Haven’t seen anything on if Meteor uses J-series messages as part of Link-16 network.

    in reply to: 2017 F-35 news and discussion thread #2127802
    FBW
    Participant

    More Atlantic Trident 2017 commentary:

    http://www.sldinfo.com/reshaping-fighter-operations-in-the-air-combat-space-atlantic-trident-2017/

    Interesting snippet:

    Therefore, you’d want to have onboard the 4th gen aircraft longest-range weapon you could possibly manage and I don’t think a Hornet of any variety is the right platform for that.

    “And actually Typhoon, whether it’s by accident or by design, does give you that especially with Meteor.”

    Addition- Babel Fish III trials; N-G airborne gateway converts MADL to Link 16 (to be fitted to F-22 increment 3.2)

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-demonstrate-multifunction-advanced-data-link-interoperability-f-35b-typhoon/

    http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/SDRs/Documents/Freedom550_JointEnterpriseTerminal.pdf

    in reply to: Military Aviation News #2128419
    FBW
    Participant

    New-built F-16s, together with spares and support packages, go way over that, I am afraid..

    24 Moroccan Block 52 – $2.4 bil (FY2007) – $100mil unit price
    18 Omani Block 52 + slight upgrade of existing 12 aircraft – $3.5 bil (FY2010) – estimated over $160 mil unit price
    18 Iraqi Block 52 – $2.3 bil + $1.95 bil for weapons (FY2011) – ~$130 mil unit price without any weapons
    20 Egyptian Block 52 – $3.2 bil (FY2009 military aid) – $160 mil unit price

    Can’t draw conclusions about the expenses of the aircraft themselves, even a used F-16 deal could be valued in multiple billion if the proposal includes weapons, targeting pods, training. If you were going on vacation to an “all-inclusive resort” you wouldn’t consider the package price to be just your lodging expenses.
    Think this has been covered dozens of times before. FMS sales are:
    1. Estimated- the Egyptian F-16 FMS was a potential total value of $3.2 billion.
    2. The packages include varied support, in the case of Egypt, it includes 15 years of training, tech support, etc.

    The FMS notice is here-
    http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/egypt-f-16cd-block-5052-aircraft

Viewing 15 posts - 841 through 855 (of 2,935 total)