FBWDid Northrop actually submit a proposal for the F-3 program?
It seems to me that ruling out all proposals based on existing aircraft is a poor decision. If they think the modernized F-22 offering was too expensive they are going in to be in a for shock when they see what a new design will cost.
According to what has been reported, NG responded to the RFI with various proposals to provide a host of technologies, not sure I believe the rumor mill about some platform derivative of the YF-23.
They haven’t ruled out proposals based on existing aircraft, but it seems they rejected the L-M proposal for an F-22/F-35 based F-3.
The critical point seems to rest on Japan’s desire to preserve industrial base, as to what industrial partner(s) they might choose or platform, there really isn’t any clarity on that.
FBWScooter- perhaps others like to play in your games of stupidity. I’ve no interest. Half of what you post is pure supposition, and the other half unadulterated B.S.
First thing is that ATD-X was, as it’s name suggests, a technology demonstrator. The nominal “F-3” may or may not (more likely not) be an evolution of the X-2 technology demonstrator. Japan’s plan for a next generation fighter, F-3 program (as in successor to F-2) has several options on the table: co-development based on an existing fighter, co-development leveraging the ATD-X program, or co-development of a new platform using both Japanese and Western aerospace subsystems. As they are still considering options, there is no certainty to what the F-3 program will entail.
Know what you are talking about before you post, it would save everyone on this forum a lot of time wading through your irrevelant commentary.
FBWThere is no such thing as a F-3 Program. It was “NOT REBORN”….
Nonetheless, Japan is looking for a Partner or Partners. To jointly design and build a future “6th Generation Fighter”.
Wrong:
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japa…ghter-project/
https://defence-blog.com/news/japan-…-aircraft.html
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com…nership-03188/
They rejected the Lockheed and NG proposals, but they will partner for co-development. Considering the reversal came recently, Oct of last, the details are still very much in the air, the intent is there for now at least.
FBWThe F-35 purchase will establish a new shipborne capability with F-35B on the Izumo class, & replace the last F-4s (by the first batch of F-35A), & a lot of F-15s. There are over 220 F-4 & F-15 in the inventory, plus F-2.
So, not really a stopgap, & plenty of ’em announced – but not enough for a completely F-35 air force. Don’t forget that Japan has had a flying VLO technology demonstrator for three years.
I think you missed the context, it was sarcasm. The Japanese F-35 order is anything but a stopgap.
The F-35’s will replace the F-4, F-15’s that did not receive MSIP II. As far as Japan’s F-3 program, that has as much to do with supporting Mitsubishi and local defense industry as anything else. Originally, Japan suspended the development program for a next generation fighter in favor of local assembly of the F-35. The cost of Japanese assembled F-35’s was exorbitant, subsequently that was scrapped and the F-3 program was reborn.
Japan is committed to sustaining an industrial base for military aviation, the F-3 program allows them to do that. In the meantime, abandoning local F-35 production after first orders are completed around 2022 will mean the next lot of contracted F-35’s will be much cheaper for Japan to aquire.
If the F-3 program follows the trajectory of the F-2 (and other Japanese defense projects), it will be expensive (understatement). The benefit to the bidding aerospace firms; L-M, NG, Boeing, BAE should be considerable as well. Win-win, Japanese industrial base preserved and likely several Western aerospace companies will win lucrative co-development contracts associated with the F-3.
FBWFew days old but pertinent to recent discussions:
FBW[USER=”77174″]panzerfeist1[/USER] – sad (and failed) attempt to score points. The US official talking about the lack of defenses against hypersonics wasnt talking about weapons like Kinzhal. The quote was specific to air breathing hypersonic cruise missiles like tsirkon when and if it enters service as well as Chinese counterparts.
FYI, as you dismiss the capability of the SM-6 to intercept missiles like Kinzhal (something you couldn’t possibly know), US defense analysts have also dismissed Kinzhal as mostly a propaganda tool than a truly effective weapon. Specifically the ability of the Kinzhal to hit moving targets from the quoted distance and the whether it brings anything to the table as a threat that the US hasn’t planned for. Who is to say they are wrong as well? After all, the US did acquire intel on the Kinzhal for which several Russians were arrested.
Odd how analysis goes both ways, and if you knew the answers you wouldn’t be asking. Honestly we don’t know how effective air defense systems are against these types of targets, nor to we know the effectiveness of the weapons themselves, yet your smug certainty is entertaining to read.
FBW[USER=”22286″]Teer[/USER]
ok Teer, Lara Seligman is lying and acting as an agent for L-M, Bellingcat is in league with Pakistan over doubts about strike efficacy. Most of the other world news organizations have taken sides and are lying for Pakistan over doubts about GoI & Indian media’s depiction of the events.
Sure, Varthaman misspoke when he said he was shot down looking for a target, and happened to shoot a missile seconds before himself being hit and ejecting (and Indian media knew this even before he was returned and was debriefed), the two seater F-16D (one of six in Pakistan) was shot down because eyewitnesses accounts saw two chutes (and they are always reliable). Whew, let’s see, said F-16D went down 8km behind LoC but India, which has satellite’s .which could find such a crash haven’t (even with tracking where it disappeared, according to IAF). So, said F-16D disappeared, no debris, no smoke.
The MiG-21 was found with four missiles, oh except one which wasn’t actually crushed in the crash, the seeker head and tail were miraculously found after detonating and shooting down the disappeared F-16D (I mean it’s not like the seeker head and tail would have been several Km apart in such a scenario). Then the US conspired to Pakistan to leak false information about no missing F-16’s.
Do do I have this right?
So so much for intelligent discussion, I guess NDTV is the only true purveyor of truth. Good to know, I’m out of this thread.
FBWNo deff not four missiles, but how about three?
Guess its a matter of the missile size
I vaguely recall this discussion years ago, we have rough dimensions of each bay which would suggest 3 would fit, but we really don’t know the layout of bay, cooling, acoustics, all the relevant variables. I do recall Berkut, I believe, quoting some insider or article confirming the four missile loadout (that was some time ago and plans can change, the ATF program originally specified 4 amraam class weapons, until the clipped wing amraam and reconfiguration of the launchers allowed 6), so its possible.
Sad and so much irreplaceable information was lost on all those deleted Pak-Fa threads. This is what I mean by bay layout, physical dimensions without layout is pretty useless:
[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:”Click image for larger version Name:t62E197FA-3232-42C6-B6E0-9B4AC802F59A.png Views:t0 Size:t640.1 KB ID:t3858738″,”data-align”:”none”,”data-attachmentid”:”3858738″,”data-size”:”full”,”title”:”62E197FA-3232-42C6-B6E0-9B4AC802F59A.png”}[/ATTACH]this is without the BRU-67/68 bomb launcher fitted
FBWOn an aside, the venom of Indian citizens attacks on Lara Seligman’s twitter after she posted the news story was disheartening to read. She is a reporter, writing about information she received. The notion that the USG or Lockheed is behind a false report is absurd. The US isn’t trying to sell F-16’s to Pakistan, US foreign policy isn’t advocating a reproachment with Pakistan, the US and Pakistan are not allies and have suspended many previous defense arrangements. The US is courting India, Lockheed is trying to sell the F-16 to India, can someone explain how the US being complicit in Pakistan lying about losing an F-16 helps the US or Lockheed in regard to India?
That’s one reason I doubt you will see any official statements from the US state dept. or any other agency in regards to this incident. The above vague comments from DoD and State is about all I’d expect. We are not looking to cut off our nose to spite our face in regards to closer ties with India over positive/negative publicity regarding US weapon system that was designed in the 1970’s.
FBWIt has been clear for some time that each side of the weapons bay on the Su-57 will carry one R-77 class missile for a total of four. This was confirmed if I’m not mistaken by some of the information that came out (unfortunately so much information was lost with the deletion of previous Pak-Fa threads). No offense to paralay, but his drawings are just that, drawings. Even those make clear there is zero chance of some four missiles per bay. Weapon separation and space for launchers is “real world”, drawing schematics based on guesstimates of bay dimensions, and internal layout while packing missiles in like sausages is not.
Barring any any actual news or technical details, this thread has turned into the equivalent of “alternate history” topics on military forums. “Wouldn’t it be cool if”, is a poor substitute for hard intel. Same goes for VCE technology on the iizd. 30, when you have to selectively interpret an interview, you are departing from available information in search of confirmation bias based on what you want to be true.
FBWI can understand the pain of being called a Pakistani when you are not.
That said, taking out the work Pakistani, the statement is still accurate in your case and others shooting off their mouths.
[USER=”30740″]BlackArcher[/USER] has already pointed out a dilution in the official Pakistani position of “no F16s being involved”. Remember this did not come from unnamed sources or journalists.
I’m not taking “the work” of anyone. Pakistan’s government lied (specifically about F-16 involvement), and has repeatedly distorted and distracted about the presence of terrorist groups operating within (the whole reason for Balakot stokes). The Modi government lied and distorted the truth about the success of the strikes, numbers killed without justification, and, considering the evidence, the downing of the F-16.
Let me correct you, just because you want to believe your government and media does not give a position of authority to accuse others of “shooting off their mouths”. It’s hard to be objective when national pride and patriotism color one’s interpretation of events. Govenments lie or distort the narrative, the Media does as well, both intentionally and unintentionally. I don’t care if we are talking about my country, India. or wherever.
The whole Indian claim is based on “Pakistan lied” about some of the details, well, so did India. There is no “believe us” we have vague electronic evidence that we can’t release. I’ve stated before the very fact they announced this alleged evidence of an F-16 disappearing without any satellite imagery confirming crash site is damning. The contradictions between what Varthaman said and what Indian media was reporting even before he was released is damning, the location of all four missiles on the MiG is damning, Lara Seligman’s report (she is a well respected aviation journalist) is damning.
I’ll base my opinion on the evidence, and the preponderance does not support India’s claim. I will amend that opinion if new information comes to light. It has nothing to do with picking sides, or believing one government more or less than another.
FBWMostly L, S, C, X band radars, the US UHF, VHF arrays are mostly used for ballistic missile early warning.
FBWAnd I don’t understand why so many Pakistani posters have this sudden affinity for embedded journalists investigating issues over coffee at Starbucks next to the Pentagon.
Let us wait for the Pentagon to release a formal statement.
First time I’ve been accused of being Pakistani. My friends and family who fought in Afghanistan in the early 2000’s are going to disown me.
[USER=”30740″]BlackArcher[/USER] – I have little trust in Pakistan, no US citizen should (or does), I was lucky I was in grad school in 2001, friends and family who fought in Afghanistan, brought back stories that make it hard to be objective. And who could forget Geronimo living near a military academy.
If you asked me before the events of the last few months whether I believed the government and media of India or Pakistan more, that would have taken about a half of a second to say “India”. Sadly, that isn’t the case right now over the narrative of Balakot. Couldn’t care less if an F-16 was downed, National pride isn’t wrapped up in a fighter that went into service 40 years ago. Dispassionately, looking at the evidence and bungling of the Indian media, and Modi admin on this, I find no reason to believe an F-16 was downed. Willing to amend my opinion should new information arise.
FBW[USER=”28771″]TR1[/USER] ?
AN/TPS-80. 2-4 GHz GaN AESA,
AN/TPY-2 being upgraded with GaN TRM
New Patriot GaN array for export (Poland)
LTAMS Patriot replacement for the Patriot, GaN
TPY-X L-band GaN
Legacy AN/FPS-117 L-band (currently being updated)
Not counting dual use large fixed arrays used mostly for BMD/DEW
US largely ignored Air Surveillance/defense radars and systems for the better part of two decades after the Cold War. That has changed in a hurry the last 8-9 years.
FBWisn’t it said “peDal turn”?
Yes, autocorrect on my rushed iPad typing.
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