FBW[USER=”30740″]BlackArcher[/USER] – I don’t understnad why so many Indian posters such as yourself keep repeating the discrepancies in statements from the Pakistani PM about the number of pilots in custody. It’s fog of war, initial reports and statements in events like this are more often inaccurate, incomplete. The vast majority of Indian media and government statements over the incident are based entirely on circumstantial evidence: claimed eyewitness chute counts, number of pilots in custody, etc. These are of dubious value.
There is is no way to ignore the total lack of physical evidence or to reconcile the statement of Varthaman that he had be “looking for a target” when downed. He never said he shot down an F-16. India would have been able to verify the downed wreckage even in Pakistan which the use of Sat imagery, to our knowledge they have none, now we have reports of all F-16’s accounted for.
Barring any hard evidence produced by India in the future, I think this issue is pretty much settled. Modi Gov. pushed a narrative for political purposes, the IAF “believes” it has some radar tracking data which might support a downed F-16, but, again fog of war.
FBWThe problem isnt in itself yaw rate. PPl tend to foret a major factor, TTB (and time to unbank) Max yaw rate is well… A data among many.
There is no problem, he was asking about a particular maneuver, the so called “petal turn”. That is a yawing maneuver, that is all I said. The F-35 yaw rate is probably superior to anything this side of the F-22 and Su-35.
Roll rate or what you are referring to instantaneous roll rate (TTB or bank to 90*) is reportedly comparable, and by pilot fee, perhaps a bit slower than a clean F-16 (and the F-16 is still in the top tier of fighters in this metric).
The max sustained roll rate (like most FBW aircraft) is FCS limited but they tested roll rates above 200* per second. FYI those 700* per second claims for aircraft like the T-38 or A-4 are somewhat b.s. they don’t achieve max roll rate until they “spool up” through a few rolls.
FBWWas he talking about a pedal turn?
No, that’s yaw rate and that’s around 28* per second. Think this is the maneuver in question, from the podcast:
FBWLast comment regarding the F-16 claim,
In the hours and days after the incident, India most likely pieced together the data from AWAC, “tape” from the other fighter radars in the area, air Surveillance radar in the area. Using all of that data, had there been an F-16 lost, they would have been able to triangulate a possible crash site. Such a site would be impossible to hide from spy satellites. Even civilian satellite imagery like GeoEye and the old IKONOS had resolution under a meter (though various restriction for access to high resolution imagery exist), spy satellites have even greater resolution. Consider the crowd sourced investigative reporting that BellingCat is able to do with social media and commercial sat imagery, it is very hard to hide evidence in this day and age.
India even has sat with SAR imaging RISAT-2, that was used to find a downed helicopter. With the adamant denial from the Pakistani side, and (in my opinion) preponderance of evidence released by Pakistan that no F-16 was lost, India could have released imagery of the crash site, and hasn’t.
FBW@ Moonlight- the F-35 cannot turn at 45* per second. At any speed, instantaneous turn, pitch, or yaw rate.
FBWNot a surprise….
Again, most US civilians and military have been for some time more pro-India than pro-Pakistan. This is a typical event, MiG falls where debris and serials can be ID’d, claims on US jet circumstantial. Many Indian posters will cry foul, aim that at Modi’s admin which claimed the MiG-21 downed the F-16 even before the pilot got back (who btw made no such claim in his own words). It would be perfectly reasonable that the MiG downed the F-16 in the circumstances described by the encounter….. except for the total lack of evidence. Funny how MiG’s seem to fall where everyone sees them but US jets fall where their is zero forensic evidence. “take our word for it”. Personally, I have no stake it this, couldn’t care less if a 50 year old Soviet design modernized with modern weapons downed a 40 year old US design with modern weapons. It wouldn’t be that surprising. Facts are in short supply in today’s society, that I do care about.
Indian posters, don’t claim that the USG has reason to cover this up, there will be zero sales to Pakistan in the future, Lockheed and the USG has been courting India for the last several years.
FBWOn recent flag exercises, somebody know exactly types of SAM threaths? have USA some russian SAMs for to simulate on these exercises?
The US uses a variety of threat emitters to mimic various weapon systems. The entire Combat training range where RF exercises take place is instrumented and set up as an Integrated air defense system operated from a control center. In that training range there are a variety of simulated threats:
short/Medium range SAM systems represented by the Joint Threat Emitter, highly mobile threat emitters, GPS jammers, pop up threat simulators.
If you are interested there is a literal alphabet soup of threat systems and simulators: Multiple Threat Emitter System (MUTES), Mini-MUTES, Joint Threat Emitter (JTE), UMTE, Tactical Radar Threat Generator (TRTG), Mobile Command and Control Units (MC2U). Basically, on and on.
The new threat simulator series, Advanced Radar Threat System (ARTS) is beginning to come online next year with 4 different versions starting with ARTS-V2 simulating the latest short/Medium range Russian SAM systems.
On top of that, like Spud said, there are several versions of the S-300 system (some partially complete, others are nearly complete systems) that are rumored to support RF.
FBWLOL. As if India didn’t do the same kind of assessment…
What was required by the USA was an excuse to answer China’s satellite destruction the year before, despite world wide agreement not to create debris. No more, no less. So quit lecturing me with your propaganda, I’m not interested.
Right back at you, with the propaganda line, or are you too dense to realize this:
it’s okay for the USA to destroy a satellite 3x heavier orbiting at 250 km in 2008 (USA-193), but not for India (or anyone else) to do the same thing.
your cognitive dissonance is a cozy form of denying the obvious, just because one nation does something doesn’t make it right. Not to mention the total lack of citation to support your “opinion” that India’s test was no more threat than the US test to the ISS.
I can give you several that say otherwise. Feel free not to respond to my corrections to your flawed views if it makes you uncomfortable, because I will continue to do so.
FBW[USER=”77292″]LMFS[/USER] – Part 2 (Part 1- about the reasons US objects to Turkey’s purchase is back one page)
In short, you can go about with your “wink, wink” the US is worried about the “true” lack of stealthiness being exposed by the S-400 narrative. Or that it will “prove” the S-400 can detect the F-35. Both points, for lack of a better word, display a naive idea on low observability. The F-35 isn’t invisible, the S-400 can detect it.
But then misconceptions about LO aircraft are rife:
A. “stealth” aircraft fly with impunity or care in the world through defenses because they can’t be “seen”- myth
B. LO isn’t a “gimmick” that one single technology can solve-myth, as it many different technologies and tactics in itself.
If you’ve noticed, US officials haven’t objected to the S-400 purchase due to a threat to the F-35’s “stealth” that’s all from clickbait articles, officials have all mentioned the networking issues.
But there is a risk to the LO of the F-35 from being networked to the S-400; these newer generation US LO aircraft have systems like the ASQ-239 with antennas all over the aircraft, these monitor 360* threats, emitters, signal strength & type. This information is fused with data from the MDF (including the RCS of the F-35 to different frequencies, angles, types of emitters) and calculates a “blue line” for the F-35 follow to weave through the emitters with the least chance of detection. The S-400 could be used to built up an accurate picture of the F-35’s signature from different vectors and distances. This is an issue because all LO aircraft rely on the filtering of radar program algorithms to fly through the edge of detection range without being tracked or classified (basically a weak or intermittent signal that is unidentifiable will be filtered out by radar algorithms). An accurate model of the F-35’s signature from different angles, frequencies, power, would allow adversaries to adjust systems to better detect, classify the F-35’s sig.
In short, the US has very good reason to deny Turkey the F-35, an would never have agreed to the F-35 being networked to the Turkish information system if they knew Turkey was going to buy the S-400. So there you go LMFS, took a considerable amount of time answer your post in depth.
Apologies to Su-57 thread, but time to put this F-35/S-400/Turkey thing to bed
FBWNo clear explanation since everyone had its own opinion. Still the issue remains concentrated on the F-35 instead of on “several other programs” as I was encouraged to think. Don’t worry, the truth always rises up to the top. BTW I said it was just a possibility so no need get triggered
Myself and (I believe Bring-it-on) stated the same reason… multiple times. Turkey wanted to (and had already started contracts) to integrate the F-35 with their own defense information systems network, HvBS. The Turkish F-35’s data collection, SIGINT, EW, Cyberwarfare information would be linked to this network. And while it’s true that the S-400 cannot be connected to the NATO air defense network, the Turkish Undersecretary for Defense had announced that Turkey was going to link the S-400 the Turkish airforce information network, this HvBS.
Like the F-35, the S-400 is a collection node for signatures, ELINT, SIGINT. Unlike the F-35, Turkey will not have access to that collected information, and Russian statements on the S-400 purchase made it clear that Turkey is buying “off the shelf” with no access to the S-400’s coding. To make matters worse, the S-400 is a networked system, all the various components connected. Turkey wouldn’t have any idea of a potential “backdoor”, or any possible Russian remote access to the Turkish S-400 networked systems. It is an unacceptable risk for the most sensitive technologies on the F-35, it’s MDF’s, threat detection, comms, and EW systems.
Since I know your going to ask “doesn’t that go both ways?” the answer is “no” not. The S-400 (even if capable of doing so) isn’t going to be sharing ELINT/SIGINT data on Russian systems it collects with Turkey the way the F-35 does, nor EW countermeasures to said systems.
Quoting a recent comment from a US Airforce General, “You don’t link your computer to an adversary’s computer.
FBW[USER=”30740″]BlackArcher[/USER] – I 100% agree no nation should have conducted ASAT tests, or should continue to.
one issue with your article, NASA does not have an ASAT program, and wouldn’t NASA is not a military agency (though cooperation/research overlaps DoD in some areas). Sloppy journalism so typical in this day and age.
FBWYou don’t know.
Actually yes I do, because they were REQUIRED to assess the risk beforehand. BTW, Operation Burnt Frost destroyed the satellite 35km lower in orbit at the satillite’s perigee. India’s test was at the satellite’s apogee, and apparently didn’t consider the risk of debris ejected into the orbital plane of the ISS. But, hey, spouting off “whuttabout’s” is easier than actually looking information up right?
FBWGoing to ignore the nonsense parts, including your pet theories on F-35/S-400, and the “why”, as that’s been explained to you repeatedly (your of course free to keep up with your conspiracy theory line of reasoning, open forum and all).
Let’s focus on this [USER=”77292″]LMFS[/USER] –
Turkey could indeed customize the Su-57. In fact and if TF-X was not so advanced by now they could unify the fleet based on Su-57 both for A2A and A2G roles. Take the airframe, which is probably the best they could possibly find, and stuff it with their avionics. A fraction of the cost of TF-X and fully indigenous content for what matters.
Two issues. First, where has Russia stated that the export Su-57E can be customized with foreign systems?
Second, if your thinking that buying a shell airframe and fitting completely indigenous systems would be attractive, I’d say that’s naive. Buying a fifth generation airframe and engine (we will discard your qualifier as irrelevant and opinion) without the systems is pointless. That is what drives the capability, differentiates those 4+ and 5th gen systems from legacy.
Marketing aside, the Su-57 isn’t going to have game changing agility or acceleration advantages over the Su-35 or Typhoon, etc. You can probably add superior supersonic persistence and supercruise. Better? sure but that’s not where the superiority lies. The whole point of these new weapon systems is act as an information node, be networked with other platforms and sensors (data fusion and distribution).
You have F-22 pilots saying over and over, the LEAST impressive advantage the F-22 possesses is it’s speed and maneuverability (this is after stating they feel no aircraft can compete with the F-22 in these areas). So, an Su-57 with all Turkish avionics? Why bother, wait for TFX (if it progresses) because it would take years to develop all the systems and make them compatable with existing Turkish systems and network. Just buy Su-57E? Not compatible with the above and that basically negates the whole advantage of fifth generation systems.
And it’s not as easy as just ripping out the Russian IFF system, for example, and adding a Turkish one compatible with Turkey’s western systems. In fifth generation architecture all systems are integrated, fused at central processor(s). So the catch-22 is that any indigenous systems would have to be federated, because there is no way Russia would had over the source codes to any export nation.
FBWI find it ridiculious that some one says a mere S-400 sale will weaken NATO alliance
– It’s a case of “not just” but “also”. And keep politics out of it, especially any mention of the “Coup” that wasn’t.
FBWIn spite of the flights of fancy of a certain Turkish poster, there isn’t likely to be any Turkish Su-57. First and foremost, let’s ignore the complex (to say the least) relationship between Turkey and Russia as this is an aviation forum.
For Russia, the S-400 deal was a geopolitical win. Russia aims a weakening the NATO alliance and this arms deal clearly met the criteria of “juice was worth the squeeze”. The S-400 was likely designed with the possibility of export and therefore has anti-tamper technology to secure software and hardware. Basically, if Turkey allowed access to third parties attempting to access coding or reverse engineer hardware, there are protections that would essentially melt or freeze the sensitive coding or algorithms, render hardware inoperable. The S-400 will not and cannot be networked with NATO systems, there is little threat to the security of the system from that regard.
The Su-57 presents a more vexing issue, unless they were basically buying a bare airframe with engines, Turkey would want to integrate existing weapons, indigenous electronics and datalinks to network with the rest of Turkish airforce assets and air defense systems. Russia isn’t going to hand over coding to a still nominal NATO ally. Erdogan isn’t going to be president forever, and while he may have purged the armed forces of most of the pro-western officer corps, as the recent election shows, Turkey is still a democracy. The weathervane could swing back in favor of the EU and Nato. Not to mention, while public opinion may view the US negatively currently, that does not make them pro-Russian and anti- Europe.
While Putin and the Russian government may flirt with a possible Su-57 sale to Turkey publicly as it would continue to create tension between Turkey-Nato, realistically it would be unattractive to both sides. Russia isn’t going to hand Turkey codes/datalinks for N036 to support Turkish AAM, RWR/IFF information to make it compatible with most Western sourced networks and radar, or coding to allow Turkey to integrate their own hardware.
So either Turkey is buying an essentially bare aircraft in which they would have to create their own avionics suite, CPU, software (basically the hardest engineering and most time consuming parts of modern combat aircraft design and construction), or buy Su-57 from Russia with minimal Turkish input which would be incompatible with existing Turkish assets. Which would nullify the greatest advantage of operating a fifth generation platform.
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