At least 130 killed in Madrid train blasts

Dutchy,

Everyone seems to forget that Saddam violated a UN resolution for 12 years!!! made ther UN look like fools and Don’t forget that for the whole 12 years there were US troops and other allies patrolling the no-fly zones at great cost!!! Also there are alot of reports coming out about the UN’s “Money for oil” plan…Doesn’t look good for alot of people. Of course the whole thing is a mess, but time will tell….this will take along time to sort out.

Yes that happened a sovereign nation was attack by another nation and the US/UK/France etc. forces came to the rescue. Iraq was a sovereign nation, which was also attacked. That was my point.

Interesting comments all around.

Dutchy

You lost me with your comment about how would America feel if a sovereign state like Kuwait was attacked and overun. Isn’t that what Guf War 1991 was all about? Iraq occupation of Kuwait and ultimately S.A. if Saddam had not been stopped primarily because of US/UK action.

Regards

Sauron

TTP ,

Don’t get me wrong. I guess rebuilding Europe after WWII was the right thing to do, as it is the right thing to do in Irak.

I know the America=Business= Capitalism. That is an equation which works pretty well if everyone is playing the rules.
What is the basic assumption:
“Let us do business, earn money , we will create jobs , produce wealth , and everybody will be happy”: fine!
It’s almost as perfect in theory as communism. The problem is that (as in communist countries) not everybody is playing with the same rules.What do we see in the business now.
Companies outsourcing, closing facilities in the US and in Europe in order to reopen them in Asia. Why? Because they not profitable? No , because they want them MORE profitable. More profitable for who? For the emplyees? No, to give indecent bonusses to their CEO’s ,fat cats and to a bunch of big stock holders. Right now Asia whealth is ramping up and US and Europe is getting down. I’m affraid that the end will be painful……

But maybe I’m a bit out of topic here :rolleyes:

Hand, Dutchy,

Back in the 1900’s some famous American, whose name escapes me, said

“The business of America is business”

It was stated in the context of staying out of European wars and conflicts……Part of the American phyche is business and commerce, making money…….it explains why we are prosperous, yet there may be many inequities. But You must remember that the vast majority of us like it this way, and don’t want or care for the government to get too involved in our affairs.
TTP
PS I know many will say money isn’t everything etc etc, we are not a greedy nation…jsut rather do things for ourselves then rely on governments who have a poor record of performance….So you are correct, part of the Marshall plan was to build a shattered Europe, but also to open a huge market.

Originally posted by TTP
Dutchy,

I only brought up WWII to demonstrate how quickly the Western Europeans were able to rebuild and become a prosperous and powerful economic entitiy, vis a vis Eastern Europe under the Soviets. Also why I brought up the Two Koreas, one a prosperous and democratic nation, the other a sad excuse…the differences are striking. I don’t mean to place Western Europe in the same light as Iraq, as if the US experimented with postwar Europe. I am well aware of the trememndous debt the US owes to Europe in regards to our foundations, our fundamental laws, and History. The US is essentially Europe….with a lot less bureacracy (at least it used to be) My family is from Italy!
TTP

Well, that’s a bit different here.
“We” were able to rebuild mainly because of the “Marshall plan” ie , American money. The US had major interest to rebuild the devastated Europe, because of the Soviet danger , and as their first commercial market.

It’s by the way amazing to notice that the 2 biggest economies just behind the US were Germany and Japan.
Those two could gently prosper since they hadn’t to spend 30% of their budget in military expenses, but that’s an other story 🙂

Dutchy:
I hadn’t much to add since your analysis and TTP’s are basically reflecting my views.

I do also believe Europe and America aren’t’ t that different. But there are some differences and we must be able to talk about these different points of view.

The strange thing with Iraq is of course that it was a verily ride country before 1991. Besides being a dictator there the population was doing quite good, in terms of education, health services etc. That was all depleted after the second Gulf war.

Dutchy,

I only brought up WWII to demonstrate how quickly the Western Europeans were able to rebuild and become a prosperous and powerful economic entitiy, vis a vis Eastern Europe under the Soviets. Also why I brought up the Two Koreas, one a prosperous and democratic nation, the other a sad excuse…the differences are striking. I don’t mean to place Western Europe in the same light as Iraq, as if the US experimented with postwar Europe. I am well aware of the trememndous debt the US owes to Europe in regards to our foundations, our fundamental laws, and History. The US is essentially Europe….with a lot less bureacracy (at least it used to be) My family is from Italy!
TTP

Come on share your views Hand, you know I am always interested in the point of view of my Frensh friend.

Interesting TTP and Dutchy.

TTP,

Please be careful by defining democracy as the perfect solution to everything. I post-war Europe it worked all right but there was a strong tradition of democracy. I must admit I know too little about Japan an South Korea, but in the latter case there is still the overwhelming fair of the North.
But more importunately I can mention a dozen countries, which aren’t democratic, but will they function well and the people are contend with their leadership.

The gamble, which the Bush administration is taking with Iraq, is a gamble, which you should not take with any country. Iraq was not the worst country Bush could have taken on, in some ways Saudi Arabia is much worse then Iraq was back then, especially when you look towards the rights of Christians or more important the people whom don’ t believe. So I would ply for not making this a blueprint of things to come.

I am a firm believer in the self-government of a population. In essence America did attack Iraq without any just cause. How would America feel if for instance if a sovereign state like Kuwait was attacked and over run. There must be an appealing reason to breached the sanctuary of sovereign of a state. In my humble view that can only be approved by a “world order” like the UN. Even though I know how much is against it and how much politics are behind it. But the integrity of a state and the right of determination is a fundamental part of who we are as a nation. This is what the USA – UK coalition has broken in the case of Iraq that is why I was against the war in the first place.

That said, being also a realist, you can’t pull out of Iraq now, it would not be fair for the Iraqis. Once you remove the power in a country you MUST help it on its feet again, that is the responsibility when you attack someone. Like I said before I hope there will be a proper UN mandate so we (The Netherlands/Spain/Poland/UK/USA/ etc.) can function like that.

PS Don’t bring up WWII and with Europe, we resisted against the Nazi Germans and that is a totally different situation.

PSS I also believe that our points of view aren’t that far a part, but the fundamentals are a total different story.

Dutchy,
Excellent points, it seems our two viewpoints aren’t that far off. The sad fact is that in our politically correct world, we don’t feel comfortable offending others, but the facts speak for themselves, I read recently that there are 39 conflicts in the world right now, and 33 involve Muslim extremists….If you look around the world, this fact seems to bear some thruth. By the way, I’m sure if Christian extremists took power in the west, there would be similar problems…fortunately for the West most of us are content, feel we are being represented, and are well educated and aware of many divirse opinions…..there is no overidding resentment….that fuels this extremism.
Like I said before, if this experiment in Iraq turns out sucessful it may serve as a blueprint for others, this is Bush’s policy…only time will tell. But look at postwar Europe, South Korea versus North Korea, Japan, etc democracy can suceed and those facts are there for all the world to see, hopefully the Mid- East can see it too.
TTP

PSS I find this thread inspiring, like some of its pre-assessors in which I was heavily evolved, you know whom I am talking about 😉 .

PS sorry for the long read this is just my point of view.

Originally posted by TTP
Hand 87-5

Your partly correct in your analysis about the roots of the Mid-East problem stems from the Arab-Israeli issue, but I believe a large part of the problem is the inability of the Muslims to adapt and change Islam to “fit” into the 21st century. Let me explain,
I just read a facinating book about this issue, the short of it is that Islam hasn’t changed since 600AD, The arab nations can’t figure out how to evolve a working democratic type government that is SEPERATE from the teachings of Islam. Essentially Islam serves as a guide for governing. Christianity, Judaism never teach about goverrnance. Now the problem is the Arab world has not been able to change and adapt to the modern world. One of the facinating facts is if you take away oil revenues the nation of Finland outproduces the entire Arab world, a nation of only 4 million! So the arabs watch as their armies are routinely embarrasssed on the battlefieild, and the West has past them by in all areas of science and technology. There is a large boiling resentment brewing, largely due to their rigid brand of Islam, but they can’t blame Islam, so they lash out against the Israeli’s, Americans, and any other easy scapegoat except the real culprit…That is why if a democracy can evolve in Iraq that includes freedom of religion, and it becomes a sucess, maybe there is hope for the future…..an interesting theory, with alot of facts supporting it.

TTP

TTP and to whoever finds this remotely interested,

As you probably know I am fascinated by your opinion. I must confess I like every once view on the world especially when they come from abroad.

If you really want to go back to the beginning, the rut of the problem, it doesn’t lay in what you have mentioned. In my, ever so humble opinion, the rut of the problem lies in the very nature of Islamism. When Mohamed walked this earth the society was totally different from what it is today. The problem is that what ever is being said in the Koran is the truth. Within Christianity you have a body, i.e. the Vatican, whom can “control” the thoughts of the Christian world. What I mean is that Christianity is evolving and that the Muslim world isn’t. The strange thing is, in the year “600” AD the Muslim world was far more advanced then the Christian world, what better example then that Spain was largely occupied by Muslims. So their culture, science, sociology was by far more advanced then the Christian world. In the centuries the Vatican made “changes” in the Christian faith and thereby “adapting” to the new world order. The Islamic faith didn’t, largely due to not having a representative body like the Vatican. Nowadays, there are a view Muslims which feel “left out” by the rest of the world because they can’ t interpretative the Koran like “we” (indeed I am raised to be a Christian but currently being an Agnostic I indeed like to use the “”) do with the Bible. But I must admit, being an Agnostic like I am, I feel that the difference between Muslims, Judaism and Christianity are zero. This is because they basically believe in the same God, the God of Abraham.

Hopefully we all resolve our difference, like “we” Christians have done with the Jude’s, and all live happily together.

The most striking was in all the post was that some of you mentioned that the terrorist are from lower “class” people, and that is factually incorrect. Most of them are upper middle class people, whom can think of them selves. The sell of AQ in Hamburg were of students attending University over there, so definitely not lower class. I do think there is some frustration in the Middle East Countries and that it indeed is focused on the Israeli situation. But nevertheless, the problem is not with the Palestinians, which is a common mistake. Palestinians are not very welcome, and actuality treaded by par example Syrians or Egyptians like second-rate citizens, so they are still refugees even though they have lived in those countries for over 50 years now. Therefore I would say that the rut of the problem isn’t the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, largely due to the English of course, but the holding back of the Muslim community because of a book which is written over 1400 years ago and isn’t really up-to-date anymore. I would like to see evolving a form of Islamism which is more adaptive to our time, hopefully this will evolve in Western Europe due to it’s large Muslim community.

Bear in mind that nowadays in The Netherlands 1 in 15 Dutchmen are from “foreign” origin. Most of my fellow Muslim citizens are trying to adapt to their new homeland, and excusably there is something evolving like Neder-Muslimism, so the majority of the Dutch Muslim community is evolving like this, therefore I hope, no analysis in this case, this will have a good effect on the Muslim community in the world, especially since Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, which is trying to cope with their extremist as well.

I think you can extract my point of view and my hope for the future from above. But I think the Muslim community have to adapted itself to the new century and therefore bombing like America and its allies are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan isn’t going to do anything any good. If America really wants to show its commitment to the Muslim world then they should stop to back regimes like Saudi Arabia and its like. They should start to show some respect towards the Muslim world and not trash them like they have done until now.

I think there is a lot wrong with the world nowadays and that it can’ t be solved if everyone is thinking of its own interested. Which in turn makes me less optimistic about the future. Hopefully we will find away to adapted and coincides together in the future. But all depends on respect from both parties, and respect the sanquately of a HUMAN LIFE.

We all inhabited this small planet and have to make the best of it. It really sound rather foolish to me that one group says it understands God better then the other, that really sounds like the most arrogant statement you can make towards everyone, you know the same God better then someone else, it is just to ridicules to mention it.

I sincerely hope that we all can work this out among ourselves and all life happily ever after………………..

…………..but I fair the worst.

PS I would like to note that I write this after at least 6 glasses of beer and four glasses (rather full) of Whiskey, therefore you can be assured of two things:

1. I speak from the bottom of my heart
2. I can’t be held accountable for this, because I am pretty much too drunk for it.

It is 2h15 PM right now and I am going to bed so good night to all of you.

I have to point out that whilst you might advocate fighting fire with fire that the fire brigade usually use water…

Flood.

Hand 87-5

Your partly correct in your analysis about the roots of the Mid-East problem stems from the Arab-Israeli issue, but I believe a large part of the problem is the inability of the Muslims to adapt and change Islam to “fit” into the 21st century. Let me explain,
I just read a facinating book about this issue, the short of it is that Islam hasn’t changed since 600AD, The arab nations can’t figure out how to evolve a working democratic type government that is SEPERATE from the teachings of Islam. Essentially Islam serves as a guide for governing. Christianity, Judaism never teach about goverrnance. Now the problem is the Arab world has not been able to change and adapt to the modern world. One of the facinating facts is if you take away oil revenues the nation of Finland outproduces the entire Arab world, a nation of only 4 million! So the arabs watch as their armies are routinely embarrasssed on the battlefieild, and the West has past them by in all areas of science and technology. There is a large boiling resentment brewing, largely due to their rigid brand of Islam, but they can’t blame Islam, so they lash out against the Israeli’s, Americans, and any other easy scapegoat except the real culprit…That is why if a democracy can evolve in Iraq that includes freedom of religion, and it becomes a sucess, maybe there is hope for the future…..an interesting theory, with alot of facts supporting it.

TTP

Originally posted by TTP
I also like your statement that AQ hadn’t done anything except the WORLD TRADE CENTER BOMBING in 93?

Not my statement. It was the comentators statement. Take issue with whichever Feed the BBC (I think) got the story from – yes, the comentator was American. If you have a problem with that don’t take it out on the messenger.
And I still don’t have any answer to my questions about the UAV – which, to me, could blow this story out of the water or cause more intrigue; but only if you happen to know the range of a Predator and the location of the nearest friendly territory that the US could launch them from in 1999/2000. – Nermal

I have been giving this quite a bit of thought really. Before 11/3, i would have supported any nation leaving the US to solve the Iraqi mudpit on it’s own. I didn’t feel the whole expedition of Iraq had anything to do with the WoT, and i still don’t think that it has. However, with the AQ attack on Spain, OBL and his minions have in my eyes made Iraq part of the WoT, and hence have justified the presence of the non-US coalition forces in Iraq.

I no longer support a Dutch or any country’s withdrawal from Iraq. While i could understand (mark my words please, although i’m sure some misintepretations will follow) part of AQ’s initial grudges against the US, i think the post-9/11 escalation has made AQ’s position less and less justifiable, 11/3 and it’s aftermath being a new low.

TTP,
That’s a pretty fair analysis,even if it’s easier for us to “redo”the story a few years later.
However all of this has roots in the middle east policy. Most of this hate is fed by the conflict in Palestine.
Every western country has his share of responsablity there.
The ones who created Israel without giving a damm to the people still living there, the ones who provided them weapons to kill each other, the one who are providing an unconditional support to one side regardless the consequences etc…

Many western countries should plead guilty in this situation, not only the US.
AQ didn’t pop up out of the blue. This situation is the result of 50 years of frustration, pain , anger, fear and no future.

I really don’t know what should be the solution but war may not be a good one.