At least 130 killed in Madrid train blasts

TTP ,

Your point of view makes sense. However keep in mind that the Spaniards NEVER supported the participation of their country to the invasion of Irak.

The Spanish governement took this decision gainst the will of the people.

GeForce,

I agree! The rational that the Spanish people utilized goes something like this: Since AQ wants to get the Spanish out of Iraq, they blow up some trains and kill hundreds, So the Spanish people vote for the party that vows to leave Iraq, obstencibly, letting the terrorists win……Then today I hear the new Spanish leader vow to Hunt down and bring justice to the perpetraitors of this crime. Well, if AQ is responsible, and the Spanish have vowed to hunt them and destroy them, then why would they stop terrorizing Spaniards? Its a dangerous road the Spanish people just took……In my opinion, I understand it to a certain degree, but I would never take that path.

I’m just glad the Brave British didn’t aquiese to the Germans in 1940…………..its always an easier path….but in the long run more will die….
TTP

Actually I don’t like this change of regime. According to me pulling out troops out of Iraq is the wrong signal to the terrorists. It’s saying “you won.” I can understand the grief amongst the Spanish people, but I think this terrorist is an attack that Europe, not only Spain, is endagered. Paranoia like in the US leads to nowhere, but one should be prepared for everything.

Definitely not.
The PP party (right wing) was ahead (5% roughly)

Were the socialists leading in the polls prior to the explosions in Spain?
TTP

Originally posted by SOC
I disagree, the Muslim religion is part of the problem. Where would AQ and Hizbullah be without Islam? Where would Pakistan be for that matter?

Now, I have no problem with 99% of the Muslim population of the world. It’s that small group of extremists that I have to deal with on a daily basis that irritates the holy hell out of me. When these people kill in the name of Allah, or commit violence as part of a jihad, they are making their faith part of the problem.

Is the solution an eradication of the religion of Islam? No, or at least not until they do something stupid like knock over another building or detonate a stolen nuclear warhead. The solution is proper education by the Islamic religious leadership. The blame falls solely at the feet of those in the Islamic faith that have let this situation develop and have not cracked down upon those teaching the Islamic religion in this extremist manner.

Well, and Bill Clinton as well, for not taking custody of OBL 😀

So, I’m not anti-Muslim, just anti-extremist. At least until the next major attack in my backyard.

After all, if ten people read a book and one person is driven to kill, the most complete and total method of ensuring the other nine don’t commit the same violent act in the future is to kill them first. We don’t need to go that far, but we do need to adopt a more violent approach towards dealing with idiotic extremists, also known worldwide as terrorists.

I see your point Sean. However those guys are everything but Muslims.
All along the History , the mankind has slaughtred in the name of a God. Christian , muslim etc….

Nothing new here. The religion is an easy way to hide much darker objectives …

Originally posted by ageorge
Good point , we cannot blame Muslims – this is the work of terrorists – not a religion.

I disagree, the Muslim religion is part of the problem. Where would AQ and Hizbullah be without Islam? Where would Pakistan be for that matter?

Now, I have no problem with 99% of the Muslim population of the world. It’s that small group of extremists that I have to deal with on a daily basis that irritates the holy hell out of me. When these people kill in the name of Allah, or commit violence as part of a jihad, they are making their faith part of the problem.

Is the solution an eradication of the religion of Islam? No, or at least not until they do something stupid like knock over another building or detonate a stolen nuclear warhead. The solution is proper education by the Islamic religious leadership. The blame falls solely at the feet of those in the Islamic faith that have let this situation develop and have not cracked down upon those teaching the Islamic religion in this extremist manner.

Well, and Bill Clinton as well, for not taking custody of OBL 😀

So, I’m not anti-Muslim, just anti-extremist. At least until the next major attack in my backyard.

After all, if ten people read a book and one person is driven to kill, the most complete and total method of ensuring the other nine don’t commit the same violent act in the future is to kill them first. We don’t need to go that far, but we do need to adopt a more violent approach towards dealing with idiotic extremists, also known worldwide as terrorists.

So true ….

Originally posted by phrozenflame
they have caught few indians and morocans in this case..once OBL is caught..hopefully we’ll eliminate these *******s who think they’re great muslims~ (one can argue and say they dont even fit into Islamic Laws anymore)

you cant blame the muslims..you can blame OBL.

Good point , we cannot blame Muslims – this is the work of terrorists – not a religion.

Al

Dutchy,

Though it is understandable, too bad it looks like the terrorists have won, I hope they are not emboldened by this act, and try to dictate actions of other nations through terror and intimidation. I agree Hitler was one of a kind, however I used it as an example of what needs to happen today in this war against these extremeists. All free nations should stand up to these low-life scum.
TTP

Originally posted by TTP
Dutchy,

You make some valid points in your analysis, and today many reports in the US are alleging the AQ involvement, but be very careful about what you say. Essentially you are advocating that if AQ attacks a nation who is allied with the US in the war on terrorism, then that nations peoples will run scared and vote out whoever the leaders were that got them involved. So your letting the terrorists win!! all they have to do is Terrorize, and they achieve their goal, which is to deter other nations from fighting them.
Also, there is the touchy subject concerning the will of most Spanish people were against fighting in Iraq, and I can see many crying “We told You So!” but by cow-towing to these Cowards who blow up trains and office buildings full of innocent civilians is not the correct path in my opinion.
You can also argue that Iraq/AQ is not Spain’s problem, its America’s fight…You may have a point and certainly public support…But When great nations cower in the face of adversity they cease being great…The US could have easily not entered both World War I and II by saying its Europe’s problem!! I’m sure most Americans felt that way, in fact I know they did….We could have just fought the Japanese…..but we didn’t and I’d like to think many nations are the better for it…Remember, the Spanish were attacked because of their alleged involvement with the US…So why did AQ attack the US on Sept 11????? We weren’t fighting anybody on Sept 10th? Because these terrorists HATE ALL FREE /NON MUSLIM PEOPLES, they don’t care about Spain, or alliances…their ultimate goal is a extreme Muslim World………in my opinion…..They must be hunted and destroyed by all free peoples, just like Hitler and his ilk were back in the 40’s
TTP

TTP,

I made my remarks not because it is my opinion, but just because I wanted to shed my light on the current situation. Unfortunately I think this is kind of the way the world works. And you can see it happening, the Conservative party was in the lead by a margin in the polls two weeks ago and look at the results the socialist party has won the elections. You can see, which was to be expected, that such an event has an influence on the elections. The new prime minister in Spain even announced withdraw of the Spanish troops from Iraq. In that way, if AQ was responsible for this attack, it has worked. On a personal note, I would say let the troops stay in Iraq, but hopefully this will be within an UN-mandate so that even Muslim troops could enter Iraq.

PS. please don’t compare anyone or anything to Nazi Germany / Hitler, that comparishement is falls. That was the organized extermination of a whole population.

Flood,

Just discussing different aspects of the situation….

Originally posted by TTP
Essentially you are advocating that if AQ attacks a nation who is allied with the US in the war on terrorism, then that nations peoples will run scared and vote out whoever the leaders were that got them involved. So your letting the terrorists win!! all they have to do is Terrorize, and they achieve their goal, which is to deter other nations from fighting them.

I was going to amble off down all sorts of paths about all sorts of things – but this is neither the time nor the place, so I stopped.
The Spanish people have the right to say and do what ever they want now. Leave them to mourn, and to vote.

Flood.

Originally posted by phrozenflame
they have caught few indians and morocans in this case..once OBL is caught..hopefully we’ll eliminate these *******s who think they’re great muslims~ (one can argue and say they dont even fit into Islamic Laws anymore)

you cant blame the muslims..you can blame OBL.

It’s nice to have a REAL muslim on this forum.

they have caught few indians and morocans in this case..once OBL is caught..hopefully we’ll eliminate these *******s who think they’re great muslims~ (one can argue and say they dont even fit into Islamic Laws anymore)

you cant blame the muslims..you can blame OBL.

Dutchy,

You make some valid points in your analysis, and today many reports in the US are alleging the AQ involvement, but be very careful about what you say. Essentially you are advocating that if AQ attacks a nation who is allied with the US in the war on terrorism, then that nations peoples will run scared and vote out whoever the leaders were that got them involved. So your letting the terrorists win!! all they have to do is Terrorize, and they achieve their goal, which is to deter other nations from fighting them.
Also, there is the touchy subject concerning the will of most Spanish people were against fighting in Iraq, and I can see many crying “We told You So!” but by cow-towing to these Cowards who blow up trains and office buildings full of innocent civilians is not the correct path in my opinion.
You can also argue that Iraq/AQ is not Spain’s problem, its America’s fight…You may have a point and certainly public support…But When great nations cower in the face of adversity they cease being great…The US could have easily not entered both World War I and II by saying its Europe’s problem!! I’m sure most Americans felt that way, in fact I know they did….We could have just fought the Japanese…..but we didn’t and I’d like to think many nations are the better for it…Remember, the Spanish were attacked because of their alleged involvement with the US…So why did AQ attack the US on Sept 11????? We weren’t fighting anybody on Sept 10th? Because these terrorists HATE ALL FREE /NON MUSLIM PEOPLES, they don’t care about Spain, or alliances…their ultimate goal is a extreme Muslim World………in my opinion…..They must be hunted and destroyed by all free peoples, just like Hitler and his ilk were back in the 40’s
TTP

My sister cancelled her Madrid vacation in a week’s time, definite after the bombings, possible before (work problems)

This is my first post on this matter. I must say I was shocked, first and foremost for the people in Spain who have lived true this kind of ordeal, and of course for all the people whom are directly involved, all the relatives of the people whom didnot service this attack and all the other people whom are close to the survivors and the dead.

My sympathies are with the Spanish population.

These kind of attacks brings the violence closer to home, especially when one remembers that I visited Madrid and those train stations only a few months ago.

————-

That said. My two pennies will be as following.

I look at the world from a real politik view. So I see only organisations who have something to gain from such an attack. If you look it from such a view then it will become more likely that Muslim organisations, or Iraqi sympatizians, are to blame for such an attack. I have heard over the radio, and of course the Spanish people are the people to vote, that it will be more likely that the socialist party will win the elections if Al Q. is to blame, because of the troops send to Iraq against the will of the majority of the Spanish citizens*. By doing this such an organisation will influence the elections and might help to bring back into power the socialist party which in turn will get the troops out of Iraq in the middle long term, and therewith achieving a great victory. On the other hand, what has the ETA to gain from this. I would say nothing. By blowing up that many people you would certainly loose people whom are sympathetic to your cause. The most the ETA has killed in one attack was I believe (correct me if I am wrong) “only” 28 people for which they apologized. So this would be out of character for the ETA. The current government would have a lot to “gain” by blaming the ETA, because of the elections.

*If I might to make a parallel to the Dutch elections after mr. Fortuin was shot. The elections were only ten days after he was shot and his party won the elections, even more then the polls predicted. So you can see a direct influence with this kind of attacks on a nation.

On a personal note. I hope I am wrong with this analysis, because then The Netherlands might be next. Nowadays our government is deciding whether the Dutch troops should say in Iraq for another six months. Therefore if an organisation would want to influence the Dutch public and therewith the politicians it would be, in there perspective, an excellent move to strike a target in Holland and to strike fear into the harts of my fellow countrymen. I say again I hope to be wrong but unfortunately I can’t rule it out.

Originally posted by Geforce
Keltic, I honestly think, and I share your feelings towards ETA, but this is the work of muslim terrorists. I just heard on the news that there’s more evidence, and that the spanish intelligence service is quite convinced ETA did not do it. For political reasons, Aznar wants to deny that the cooperation with the US has caused this drama. However, this is not an attack on “the coalition”, it’s an attack on every democracy. It could have happened in Paris or Brussels as well.

3/11, a symbolic date, in the history of Europe.

Of course, it´s likely that they were islamists, but I don´t want to rule anything out. And ETA is able to perform it too. Even the posibility of a new terrorist group couldn´t be ruled out.

I am against death penalty, but I have to admit that I would rather see the Texan method performed on these terrorists. Strange, I never experienced this before.