Christ was short and swarthy

It’s a rare person these days who’ll say straight out that they’re a believer.I am too,but I try to live by Christian principles and lead by example rather than quoting bits of the Bible at people all the time.
My church suits me because it’s fairly informal and welcomes everyone,believers or not,to activities such as toddlers’ or youth groups.If people decide they want to come along to services then that’s nice,if they don’t then that’s OK too.I don’t bash people over the head with a Bible in Starbuck’s or start asking them if they know the lord Jesus Christ if I’m in a lift with someone.Same faith,different faith,no faith at all it’s all the same to me.we all share a common humanity.
Like everyone,I’ve no idea what happens after we die,but it’s inconceivable to me that something as complex as the human soul doesn’t survive in some way.

I enjoy discussing this subject. I was asked once to act as devils advocate and present an opposite view pointing out reasons why it was completely false and I did it quite well and almost convinced my self. But I do believe in spite of the non-evidence. I have to go out now but would like to return to this later if you would like to continue to share views and comments. If the mods close it down I will take the hint.

Stuart H – you beat me to it – I was about to respond in similar vein. But at least they were good stories to be handed down, I suppose.

No, I don’t agree with Beejays last post. The first gospels would probably have been written in Hebrew. Who knows what omissions or changes the Hebrew writers made? Surely we all know how a story changes from one telling to the next. The tale from the first world war advises us that ‘Send Three and fourpence, We’re going to a dance!’ started out as ‘Send re-enforcements, we’re going to advance!’.

The current gospels, as per the King James authorised version, were translated into Latin, and who knows what agenda the translaters were following? The gospels, I suspect, follow the political agenda current at the time of translation. ‘Fear the Lord’ for example. ‘Fear’ has various connotations, depending on the perspective of the reader/translator. Perhaps you can read the original Hebrew, but even then, I wouldn’t take it as gospel.

Wyverns can be proved. The gospels are stories modified in translation through the ages. There was no Internet and reading and writing were skills held by those in power.

The fundemental problem is that believers have no proof to support their beleif – only belief, a tenuous thread at the best of times. Unbelievers do not have that problem. They have no need to prove anything but can live their lives without the burden, of the sins of mankind, which believers carry to their deaths.

What a miserable prospect for life!

Don’t forget that the Gospels were written well after the events and it is unproven by whom they were written. So that everything pertaining to the story of Christ is probably a mixture of hearsay and myth. Good stories though, if you like that sort of thing. There was certainly no love lost between Romans and Jews so it was a hotbed for stories.

I understand that the first Gospels were written within 70 years of the events happening. The people who did write them wrote them as an accurate record of the events.

If I wrote on here or even in a book that the Wyvern was powered by a merlin v6, there would be a flood of replies shooting me down. Do you not think it is possible that the same applies to the stories of Jesus and what happened to him, ie those stories would have not continued very long certainly not 2000 + years.

Personally, I think my country (the US) should’ve stayed completely out of that war, and ya’ll (The English) shouldn’t have been in so many treaties that made you end up fighting on the side of the French :diablo:.

Well you had a damn good crack at staying out of it, till the Japs kicked you in the nuts and you fell off your fence…:diablo:

Sorry but there seems to me an overwhelming lack of evidence for a God, yet plenty against. You’re born, you live, you kick the bucket, that’s it. End of. But if anyone can offer definitive, concrete proof of a God I’ll happily concede.

Ryan.

Why would I EVER wish to believe in a God who allows his own clergy to abuse children and to go unpunished?

Just explain this one simple thing to me. The First World War. The Allies were supported by the Christian Church. Look at the recruitment posters, notices and songs and verse of the day. Fighting the Germans was not only a patriotic but a Christian thing to do. At the same time the Germans had Gott Mit Uns engraved on their uniform belts.

So, how could he be on both sides at once? Is God nothing more than a hypocrite? Or is he in fact nothing more than a comedian who watches millions die for a lark?

kev35

I don’t believe in God either, but that doesn’t sound like the God I don’t believe in.

No need for anyone to be contentious.
Lately, I’ve noticed non-believers halving almost missionary zeal in their promoting their anti-religion stance.

Like everything else (countries, wars, etc) “religion” has done a lot of good things, and some (probably a minority) of not so good things.
If you want to hold them accountable for everything, then you should be prepared to do so with groups you have an affinity for as well…(example, the RAF was on the good guys side during WWII…but they still killed innocent civilians).

So just because some priests molested little boys and you condem their entire church for that, you might want to examine your feelings towards everyone who does that…police, doctors, teachers..other people in positions of trust and power (yes, even older boys in school if the old stories of UK boarding schools are accurate).

Even today, religious affiliated NGOs do huge amounts of good work.

And if nothing else, despite the claims by atheists and agnostics of their superiority, remember the international sign for relief is still the Red Cross or Red Crescent…not a red question mark. 😀

You’re free not to believe, but I’d hope that one’s “modern all-inclusive open mindededness” would provent one from mocking or looking down upon those who do.
In other words, being open-minded should go both ways.

Peace.

what they believe to be a just war…

So who’s to judge what is and isn’t “just”?

How very interesting. Post 46 has just confirmed everything I feared about organised Religion. In answer to my question whether it was easier to brainwash Haitian orphans or convert non Christian Americans his answer is, to me at least, a confirmation of all that is wrong with organised Religion. His answer was short, simple and unequivocal….

“Not easier at all. Both need to be done.”

So there you have it, Ryan espouses an attitude no less insidious than the most fundamentalist Religions in existence today.

Your reference to Joshua is utterly meaningless in the context of the Great War. German Christians would cite the same passage.

Regards,

kev35

No disrespect intended, but why would Kev35 want to feel differently before he died? I’m just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but to me, that remark implicitly implies that your opinion/beliefs are right, and his are wrong…

😀 I do believe that, because I believe that truth by definition is exclusive, and if there is a belief system is right, then it is actually imperative that one treat it as such and be passionate about it – after all, you probably wouldn’t take mine, or someone else’s beliefs seriously if we didn’t care if you were going to suffer eternal punishment for sin now, would you?

Ryan

One billion Hindus probably feel the same way about you. 😎

Haha! Actually, they wouldn’t care because they’d figure I’ll just reappear as a frog or a slug or something and get my just deserts via “Karma.” 😀

Ryan

Ryan.

It matters when some of the many and varied Religious organisations throughout the world do not preach peace and tolerance, or to ‘love thy neighbour’ but cultivate hatred, division and violence.

And they’re wrong to do so, except in limited, just (assuming we have a standard of what is just) warfare situations.

Why would I EVER wish to believe in a God who allows his own clergy to abuse children and to go unpunished?

I’d beg to argue they aren’t His clergy, or if they claim to be so, are living in hypocrisy and should be dealt with appropriately!

Just explain this one simple thing to me. The First World War. The Allies were supported by the Christian Church. Look at the recruitment posters, notices and songs and verse of the day. Fighting the Germans was not only a patriotic but a Christian thing to do. At the same time the Germans had Gott Mit Uns engraved on their uniform belts.

The church was wrong to do so. Personally, I think my country (the US) should’ve stayed completely out of that war, and ya’ll (The English) shouldn’t have been in so many treaties that made you end up fighting on the side of the French :diablo:.

So, how could he be on both sides at once? Is God nothing more than a hypocrite? Or is he in fact nothing more than a comedian who watches millions die for a lark?

He wasn’t on both sides at once. Deluded people claimed Him for their side without reading the book He authored that would’ve given them the answers and solutions without going to war. I personally believe that Joshua 5:13-14 should be read by any Christians before they choose to fight in what they believe to be a just war…

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

The difference between you and I Ryan is that I choose NOT to believe in a God, an omnipresent and omnipotent being, who, as far as I can see, is about as useful as Nero. You on the other hand, wish to enforce your beliefs on others. Is it easier to brainwash Haitian orphans than to ‘convert’ those in your own society wo believe organised Religion to be NOTHING more than a method of giveing the ‘believer’ a feeling of superiority over those who don’t?

Not easier at all. Both need to be done. And BTW faith does not make me feel superior to you at all. I think you have some very valid concerns and serious points to make in the face of a lot of religious folks who aren’t very consistent with the teachings that make up the foundation of the beliefs they claim to hold.

Ryan

Exactly.

Regards,

kev35

I think you will find that “God” has been on every protagonist’s side, in every war there has ever been, except when Communists have been involved. So it’s been god against god! Nice…………….

One billion Hindus probably feel the same way about you. 😎

Possibly just about the best comeback possible. Love it! 😀

In pretty much any war of course you’ll have the protagonists claiming God is on their side and that their cause is just; look at the English Civil War for example.

…I suspect it’d do little for morale if you said just before battle,

“God’s not on our side on this one, but crack on anyway lads”
:rolleyes:

Ryan.

It matters when some of the many and varied Religious organisations throughout the world do not preach peace and tolerance, or to ‘love thy neighbour’ but cultivate hatred, division and violence.

Why would I EVER wish to believe in a God who allows his own clergy to abuse children and to go unpunished?

Just explain this one simple thing to me. The First World War. The Allies were supported by the Christian Church. Look at the recruitment posters, notices and songs and verse of the day. Fighting the Germans was not only a patriotic but a Christian thing to do. At the same time the Germans had Gott Mit Uns engraved on their uniform belts.

So, how could he be on both sides at once? Is God nothing more than a hypocrite? Or is he in fact nothing more than a comedian who watches millions die for a lark?

The difference between you and I Ryan is that I choose NOT to believe in a God, an omnipresent and omnipotent being, who, as far as I can see, is about as useful as Nero. You on the other hand, wish to enforce your beliefs on others. Is it easier to brainwash Haitian orphans than to ‘convert’ those in your own society wo believe organised Religion to be NOTHING more than a method of giveing the ‘believer’ a feeling of superiority over those who don’t?

As for changing my views before I die I’m not naive enough to say that I wouldn’t, but I suspect if I did it would be from fear, hope and desperation not because of any great belief

Regards,

kev35

We live on one little planet revolving around a sun, which is just another star……

The probability is that there are millions of other “Earths” in millions of the galaxies in the Universe. You are right – our lives are but a micro-blip in the massive span of the Universe, be we Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or any of the other thousands of belief systems on the Earth.