Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

If it was so, that problem was solved long ago. Similar thing in Iraq.
By your logic the main intrest of all Iraqi people is internal calm and security.
That allows economic recovery and wellfare as well as the departure of foreign troops. Someones have other political intrests in Iraq and undermines that.

What are you on about Iraq for? :confused:

I’m talking about Israel/Palestine.

Oh, and the Iraqi thing would be best served by all foreigners clearing out – a country is best sorted out from within.

“In a war truth is the first casuality”

I agree 100%

It’s the Roman’s fault for ethnically cleansing the Jews from their ancestoral lands. The Jews naturally wanted their ancestoral homeland back when given the chance. 🙂

Please stick to the facts and do not mix “Google-knowledge”.
Egypt is not Palestine. The Gaza-strip was occupied by Egypt in 1948. Nasser “founded” Palestine “resistance” groups to fight Israel and stay so below official committement, similar Syria/Iran today. The Muslim Brotherhood fractions were fought by Egypt as internal danger and are so till today. Later the activities of that were channeld against Israel too.
Adding some details without general view will proof nothing.
I think Hizbollah is left aside intentionally to justify the wrong claim?!.

I stick to the facts, Mr. been-everywhere, know-everything. First, Egypt is a secular govt and as such has natural antipathy towards Muslim-oriuentred organizations with political influence. Second, Hizbollah was formed in 1982 as a direct answer to Israeli invasion but this action (as all others) already has roots in 1948. Third, if Israelis did not seize the land in 1948, what reason would today’s Palestinians have to support HAMAS or Lebanese to comfort Hizbollah? For what and against whom?

If Israelis wanted to avoid problems, they should not have thought about that back in 1948. But what did they do instead? They have moved in directly in the nest of the their worst enemies.. What exactly were they thinking? Expecting standing ovations?

You last sentence shows, you are not intrested in too much details, to proof what?! So far I thought, that we agree, that violance is no real way to solve problems at first.

Correct, I am not going into details and I am backing no side here. Both sides have done their part. Now, let them have the bitter fruits of their actions.

You are wrong, I have chosen the best possible examples. HAMAS originates back to 1928, albeit under different name (Al-Ikhwan al-Muslimin), under different role (mostly social and religious) and in different location (Egypt). In late 50s Yassin brought the ideas of Al-Ikhwan to Gaza strip and in the next 10 years raised a powerful social, religius and political organization with appearing military potential. This organization was inherited by Israeli secret service to create a counterbalance to secular and revolutionary PLO, later got out of control and was renamed to Harakat Al-Muqawama Al-Islamiya in 1987.

Radicalization of first peaceful Muslim organizations did not happen at one stroke, it is a result of decades of numerous provocations form the side of Jewish settlers starting by seizing the land in 1948.. Everything else, including Lebanon 1982, Gush Emunim, Kach!, truck incident, Hebron incident, or assassinations of Ayassh, Yassin and Rantissi are only fruits of the conflict originating back in 1948.
Both sides have blood on their hands and both are equally eager to kill and destroy..

Please stick to the facts and do not mix “Google-knowledge”.
Egypt is not Palestine. The Gaza-strip was occupied by Egypt in 1948. Nasser “founded” Palestine “resistance” groups to fight Israel and stay so below official committement, similar Syria/Iran today. The Muslim Brotherhood fractions were fought by Egypt as internal danger and are so till today. Later the activities of that were channeld against Israel too.
Adding some details without general view will proof nothing.
I think Hizbollah is left aside intentionally to justify the wrong claim?!

Both sides have blood on their hands and both are equally eager to kill and destroy..

You last sentence shows, you are not intrested in too much details, to proof what?! So far I thought, that we agree, that violance is no real way to solve problems at first.

You choose the wrong examples. Neither Hamas nor Hizbollah had/have something to do with 1948.
Both were established much later. The Hizbollah did function as armed fraction for the Shiite population in the Lebanese civil war.
The Hamas was created a religious counterpart to the “socialist” PLO.
Both were sponsored by Israel at first, when overtaken by Syria and Iran. Now they live-on as political parties and have to justify their political need.
Like in “good old communist times” or by “religions” they promise the paradise, when the class-enemy is defeated or any other “outside” foe.
In reality they do not serve the well-being of their people at first and are committed to their sponsors. Wellfare-money, weaponary and political support f.e.
At the moment the own people are political hostages of those.

You are wrong, I have chosen the best possible examples. HAMAS originates back to 1928, albeit under different name (Al-Ikhwan al-Muslimin), under different role (mostly social and religious) and in different location (Egypt). In late 50s Yassin brought the ideas of Al-Ikhwan to Gaza strip and in the next 10 years raised a powerful social, religius and political organization with appearing military potential. This organization was inherited by Israeli secret service to create a counterbalance to secular and revolutionary PLO, later got out of control and was renamed to Harakat Al-Muqawama Al-Islamiya in 1987.

Radicalization of first peaceful Muslim organizations did not happen at one stroke, it is a result of decades of numerous provocations form the side of Jewish settlers starting by seizing the land in 1948.. Everything else, including Lebanon 1982, Gush Emunim, Kach!, truck incident, Hebron incident, or assassinations of Ayassh, Yassin and Rantissi are only fruits of the conflict originating back in 1948.

Both sides have blood on their hands and both are equally eager to kill and destroy..

I skimmed through the first 3 pages, then skipped the rest.

Cliff Barnes was the only poster that actually has a ******* clue about the problem.

I’ve seen the same thing first hand here at home, the more they (IDF) squeeze, the bigger the problem gets. The IDF are just a large recruitment campaign for the bombers.

To solve the problem you must combat the motivation – if the people (Palestinians) are fed, watered, have jobs, and are happy, then they won’t have reason to kill themselves. Its pretty much that simple.

If it was so, that problem was solved long ago. Similar thing in Iraq.
By your logic the main intrest of all Iraqi people is internal calm and security.
That allows economic recovery and wellfare as well as the departure of foreign troops. Someones have other political intrests in Iraq and undermines that.

The trigger for all current operations was Israeli seizure of the land back in 1948. Yes, we can argue about prehistoric religious Jew-Muslim conflicts, true, but the fact is that without Israeli aggression just after WWII organizations like Hamas or Hizbollah would have no reason to exist. What we see today is a snowball effect of the initial conflict from 1948, each side blaming the other of terrorism. The claims of Israeli members like Impi or Iluv are exactly as laughable and ridiculous as if some Hezbollah member tried to justify their action on this forum.

You choose the wrong examples. Neither Hamas nor Hizbollah had/have something to do with 1948.
Both were established much later. The Hizbollah did function as armed fraction for the Shiite population in the Lebanese civil war.
The Hamas was created a religious counterpart to the “socialist” PLO.
Both were sponsored by Israel at first, when overtaken by Syria and Iran. Now they live-on as political parties and have to justify their political need.
Like in “good old communist times” or by “religions” they promise the paradise, when the class-enemy is defeated or any other “outside” foe.
In reality they do not serve the well-being of their people at first and are committed to their sponsors. Wellfare-money, weaponary and political support f.e.
At the moment the own people are political hostages of those.

I skimmed through the first 3 pages, then skipped the rest.

Cliff Barnes was the only poster that actually has a ******* clue about the problem.

I’ve seen the same thing first hand here at home, the more they (IDF) squeeze, the bigger the problem gets. The IDF are just a large recruitment campaign for the bombers.

To solve the problem you must combat the motivation – if the people (Palestinians) are fed, watered, have jobs, and are happy, then they won’t have reason to kill themselves. Its pretty much that simple.

It is not that simple. See crime and victim situation. The criminal had a bad childhood always and the victim triggered the crime in some way always.

So much about “You won’t find any innocent in this equation.”

The trigger for all current operations was Israeli seizure of the land back in 1948. Yes, we can argue about prehistoric religious Jew-Muslim conflicts, true, but the fact is that without Israeli aggression just after WWII organizations like Hamas or Hizbollah would have no reason (or far far less) to exist. What we see today is a snowball effect of the initial conflict from 1948, now each side blaming the other of terrorism and aggression. The claims of members like Impi, PhantomII or IluvtheF4E about Hezbollah being responsible for all are exactly as laughable and ridiculous as if some Hezbollah member came to this forum to justify their action. All BS..

The only real solution to this conflict would be flattening out the whole area, regardless of Jews, Christians, Muslims or green Martians there and start anew. But that can’t happen, so they will continue with killing. Do you really think that eventual wiping out Hezbollah from Beirut would actually solve something? First, it is technically impossible without destroying the whole city, second, there are so many more cities to start anew, third, every civil victim raises another future Hezbollah member or two. Don’t act as if you don’t know it..

In the Israeli press the IDF is blamed for sluggish behavior.
All infos were at hand before, when outsmarted by Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.
In that dirty political game Hamas and Hezbollah played the usefull idiots for Iran.

Every country that has a problem with terrorist attacks today has done enough evil in the past to give reasons for those. Ergo. they get what they deserve. Both Hizbollah and Israel.. You won’t find any innocent in this equation.

It is not that simple. See crime and victim situation. The criminal had a bad childhood always and the victim triggered the crime in some way always.
So much about “You won’t find any innocent in this equation.”

War is always a mess. One of Clausewitz’s less famous dictums was: “No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.” A statement which is as true today as it was when he wrote it in the 19th century.

The entire situation is a mess

Four days of intense bombing resulting in less than 200 civilians killed, and some here call it genocide? What a joke, if Israel was interested in genocide the Lebanese death toll would be hundreds of times what it currently is.

Israel is not the aggressor, as it is acting entirely within its rights of self-defence. It is Hezbollah, and by extension its controllers in Damascus and Tehran, who are the aggressors. They launched an unprovoked attack over an international border with no justification. The usual anti-Israeli voices can’t even cry out about “occupation”, because the occupation of Lebanon ceased long ago.

Yep, Israel withdrew from Lebanon over six years ago, yet in those intervening years Hezbollah has continued to fire rockets at Israeli towns and villages, getting ever bolder as the years progressed and obtaining ever more sophisticated rockets and other weaponry. What possibly legitimate reason could Hezbollah have to keep doing what they’re doing? Short answer, none.

For over a year now, the IDF has been observing troubling signals by Hezbollah and its Iranian advisors, as defenses were strengthened and observation towers with cameras were built all along the Lebanon-Israel border, to watch the movements of IDF troops. Make no mistake, the kidnapping of IDF soldiers has been planned for a long time, and four days ago Hezbollah saw its chance and took it. This is a clear act of war, the unprovoked kidnapping of a state’s soldiers, and Hezbollah must be held accountable for it.

Nor are the Lebanese guiltless. As the months passed, and the IDF became increasingly concerned about Hezbollah’s preparations, Israel’s leaders quietly demanded that Lebanon do something about it, and that it reign in and disarm Hezbollah in line with UN Resolution 1559. Instead of attempting to disarm Hezbollah, or even asking for outside help in doing so, the Lebanese government flatly ignored Israel’s requests and even appointed Hezbollah members to the governing cabinet. Thus, in legal terms they are responsible for the actions of Hezbollah, whether they knew of the plan or not.

Let’s face it, from the Israeli perspective enough was enough. Something had to be done about Hezbollah, and seeing as though nobody else wanted to do anything it was left to Israel to do it itself. In my opinion, it has struck back fairly, hitting only Hezbollah targets and infrastructure (such as the airport) which could be used to resupply Hezbollah (and thus lengthen the conflict). The number of civilian deaths truly are regrettable, but unfortunately they are unavoidable in war, especially against an opponent such as Hezbollah which hides its rocket launch positions and weapons stockpiles in civilian houses and in civilian villages.

This is not a war against Lebanon, it is a war against Hezbollah. Unfortunately, Lebanon is now caught in the middle and must suffer because of the foolish decisions taken by its government in the past year in their convenient ignorance of the fact that sovereign states also have responsibilities. Perhaps, if things go well, both Lebanon and Israel will benefit from this war, as Hezbollah is destroyed, Iran and Syria’s influence is weakened, and Lebanon becomes able to rebuild itself without the poisonous influence of Iran’s proxy in its midst. I hope that’s true, because let’s be realistic here: Hezbollah has been the 800kg gorilla in Lebanon for a while now, and anybody who thinks they would have sat back and allowed Lebanon to quietly become a truly democratic and free society are being naive. Sooner or later, Hezbollah would have acted against its host, and you can be damn sure that they would have done so at a time when they were far too strong for the Lebanese Army to resist.

Asymmetrical warfare is a real problem, when respected or sponsored!

Every country that has a problem with terrorist attacks today has done enough evil in the past to give reasons for those. Ergo. they get what they deserve. Both Hizbollah and Israel.. You won’t find any innocent in this equation.

Looks like you have found a wonderful universal excuse for all problems of the world. Yeah, terrorists!

Asymmetrical warfare is a real problem, when respected or sponsored!

Tell that to the terrorists.

Looks like you have found a wonderful universal excuse for all problems of the world. Yeah, terrorists!

I would like to answer to this guy, to Phantom II and all other israel sympathizers. When the Germans shot 10 civilians for every soldier they lost to a resistant fighter, the world cried out for inhumman behavior. Now Israel is killing 100 civilians for the simple kidnap of 2 of its soldiers plus destroys purely civilian infrastructure for the simple reason of escalating the crisis so there is no Palestinian country and there is a good excuse for the US, UK, and Israel to attack Syria and Iran,and the whole western world talks about the Lebanese responsibility … It is Israel who is the Aggressor at this point and not Lebanon. It is Israel who is attacking civilians and civilian targets, not Hesbolah. Wake up and get the facts straight. I am tired of being served US propaganda for the preparation of the US public opinion for unjust causes. Remember the Iraqi WOMD? What happened with them? Where are they? The whole world was saying they didn’t exist and the US went to war for their destruction making their public believe in their anti-WOMD campaign. They even went as far as connecting the 9/11 to Iraq. In fact it was the US attack in Iraq that enabled Al Quida to make Iraq a stronghold. Thousands of Iraqi civilians dead, a “Democracy” to laugh at and yet the US of Mr. Bush, Pearl, Chenney, and cia, want to expand the model over to Syria and Iran…..
Well F…k you! Leave the world alone. Get a better control of your emmisions and energy consumption and let the rest of the planet in peace.

Do you know, what you write about?!
Lebanon is an independent country and Israel is an independent country.
Both countries does not have a diplomatic relationship, because Lebanon does not regocnise Israel. Despite that, both are UN-members and share a common border marked by the UN. The Lebanese goverment is responsible for the security of that international border. That security of the border was violated by Lebanese citizen (Hezbollah) by attacking Israel.
“The Lebanese army did all to prevent that and jailed that criminals already?!” “The hostages are freed and returned?!”
We keep in mind that the Lebanese government and its regular army are responsible for the security of the Lebanese border and the security of the own people! None prevents the Lebanese goverment to restore a secure border as quick as possible.
As long as the Lebanese government does not show its will to restore the security of the border and return the hostages it has to take the responsibility for all related acts.
It is insane thinking to compare that with German war crimes of WW2.

“In a war truth is the first casuality”