Millions in Silver Bullion Found on Sunken WW2 Merchant Ship

An interesting article from the BBC on marine salvage:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15031084

It is interesting, especially considering the attitudes of most here, that three Royal Navy warships, HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue and HMS Cressy, that were torpedoed by a U-boat, with the loss of 1500 lives, during an infamous action in 1914 are apparently subject to ‘desecration’ by Dutch salvage companies in search of copper and brass.

http://www.royal-naval-association.co.uk/news/100/anger-at-dutch-salvage-ships-plundering-ocean-graves/

Why are these ‘wargrave’ shipwrecks not protected? :confused:

What I thought was particularly interesting is that until I read this latest BBC article I thought that Odyssey Marine Exploration were taking it upon themselves to search for salvageable treasure and then had approached the British government but it now seems that the search was actually commissioned by the Department for Transport; if my understanding of that phrase is correct!

On the moral argument I am still conflicted; I absolutely agree that the amount of money potentially recoverable shouldn’t be the deciding factor but then unless there was a compelling reason to go disturbing a ‘grave site’ we wouldn’t be having this discussion. There must be thousands of missing servicemen buried in lonely graves in the deserts and jungles of the world but since most of these are not fortunate enough to have a Spitfire as a tomb nobody is going to bother looking for them.

I suppose one thing that lessens the charge of ‘grave-robbing’ in my mind is the fact that there will almost certainly be no remains to disturb. I remember the underwater video footage of the RMS Titanic (which I have to admit that I personally found fascinating); there was no evidence whatsoever of any human remains except for the poignant sight of pairs of shoes lying side-by-side on the sea bed. Having said that I still think that the wreck site should be treated with some respect (not least because it is a significant historic site); for example I understand that proposals to recover the gold from HMS Edinburgh that would involve the use of explosives were rejected by the government of the day.

This is indeed interesting.

It seems the Mantola cannot be considered a war grave as no one died aboard the vessel so it is difficult to find an objection to the recovery of the silver aboard the Mantola. Further, it is interesting to note that the Ministry Of War Transport paid out the insurance when the vessel was sunk, I presume then the same would be true for the Gairsoppa? That though is where the similarities come to an end. It seems likely that around 50 of the Gairsoppa’s crew went down with the vessel. If none of the crew had gone down with the Gairsoppa then I think it would be ok to salvage the silver, but not at the risk of disturbing graves.

Linking back to the discussion earlier in the thread re the PMR Act and the impact thereof on the recovery of crashed aircraft (and crew) in the UK, the MoD have refused to grant licenses to recover airframes in which it is believed the remains of the pilot lie because it is a grave. It seems that 30 million quid’s worth of silver is more than enough for the Government to put aside their principles and allow this disgusting treasure hunt to continue.

Regards,

kev35

Odyssey Marine Exploration has now announced that it has located the SS Mantola sunk in 1917 by the German submarine U-81.

The SS Mantola may have been carrying more than 600,000 ounces of silver, worth about £12m at current market values:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15246156

One gem from this latest from the BBC website:

It was during the recent expedition to search for the SS Gairsoppa, commissioned by the Department for Transport, that the SS Mantola was found.

Interesting! 😉

One thought that I have been mulling over is regarding ownership of the wreck of the Gairsoppa and the cargo carried aboard her. There are references on the internet to a sum of £325,000 being paid out by an insurance company.

It’s my understanding that if you write off your car and the insurance pay out then the wreckage becomes theirs. Did this apply to ships lost at sea?

If the ownership of the Gairsoppa does lie with an insurance company, then what right have the British Government to sell the salvage rights anyway? (Leaving aside the very contentious nature of whether she is / should be a protected pace under the provisions of the PMR Act.) Unless of course, the Government were the insurers.

I strongly suspect Andy is right and that there is more to this than meets the eye.

Regards,

kev35

Nebiesam

Welcome to the forum, and do please keep us informed.

There will be others out there who are living and close relatives of those who were lost. I don’t think it will be long before we hear something from them.

I have also been contacted by a third party that rather makes me think that the real story of the planned salvage on this ship has not yet hit the headlines.

I am new to this site and it is only because my mother who is in her 96th year asked me to investigate the SS Gairsoppa.

Her brother Andrew Parker Carmichael was a sailor on it. He was in the lifeboat that made it to shore but died before reaching land As far as she remembers his body was put into the sea.

Have contacted the salvage co but so far other than a short reply no joy from them.

HMS Royal Oak has had about 3000 tons of fuel-oil removed for environmental reasons. I don’t see how anybody could see a problem with that.

Also, most interestingly, as detailed in the HMS Royal Oak site linked from as earlier post, the MOD allowed a casket containing the ashes of one of the widows of a crew member lost on HMS Royal Oak to be placed through an open porthole into the wreck. The website said this was the first time something like this had been allowed but, again, I cannot see anybody having a problem with it. I thought it was rather moving.

Odyssey Marine have also discovered and positively identified a former HMS Victory that could contain $1billion worth of gold coins.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/guernsey/7866103.stm

I do not know the details of the Spanish gold recovery but I think the rules for salvage from international waters differ depending on where the loot is landed. There is also the issue of identification of the wreck; how hard is it to identify a wreck from a few artefacts anyway…

…and how hard would a salvor try if there were likely to be issues of ownership?

Sounds like the Spanish got a better deal than the UK…..unless the $500million is only 20% of what was found!

Creaking Door.

Tied for time at the moment so I’m not 100% sure on this but isn’t the Royal Oak dived on for environmental reasons? If the PMR Act is applied to a vessel it is my understanding that it can still be dived on and or filmed. However, it cannot be entered and nothing can be removed from it. I expect the £30 million would be enough to invoke a Governmental cry of exceptional circumstances.’

Regarding the subject of crashed aircraft in the UK don’t they already fall under what you refer to as a blanket ban? All protected by the PMR Act this can be and is waived as evidenced by the digs which many members here have been a part of. Licenses have not been granted for recovery where there is any suspicion that human remains may be entombed in the wreckage. The MoD surely can’t expect to have it both ways. If you can’t dig because of human remains then you shouldn’t be able to recover silver from the Gairsoppa which is effectively the last resting place for at least some of the crew. However, if Odyssey Marine are allowed to recover the silver from the Gairsoppa then the MoD should allow responsible groups to recover aircraft containing human remains so they can be buried. Therein lies the double standard.

Odyssey Marine are worth reading about, especially their recent disaster in which they have been forced to hand over $500 million dollars worth of gold and silver back to Spain. Their share prices have suffered significant setbacks over the last few months as they have fallen from a high of $4.43 to a low of $2.37 today. All of this on the back of what is now being known as the ‘Black Swan’ project.

Regards,

kev35

While I absolutely agree that any merchant ship lost during WW2 (or any other war) should be designated as a war-grave (where casualties are even a possibility) I fear that the protection of the PMR Act can be and is waived under exceptional circumstances; HMS Royal Oak is a good example of this. I’m sure that HM Government will view the potential for a windfall of millions of pounds as ‘exceptional circumstances’.

Personally I’m a bit conflicted about this one. Not that I give a damn about the money; in terms of total government spending (or over-spending) £30million will not make one jot of difference to me or anybody else. What worries me is the logical extension of a blanket protection of all ‘war-graves’.

For example several on this thread have advocated the recovery of the remains of aircrew that are known to be in crash-sites in the UK; wouldn’t a blanket ban prohibit the recovery of these remains? (Not that the MOD seem likely to allow recovery anyway.) I’ll be honest I find ‘aviation archaeology’ and the whole subject of undersea wreck investigation fascinating; I genuinely think that there is something to be learned from investigating these sites, even if they be motivated primarily by profit, and any (legal) investigation at least keeps the sacrifices of those lost in war in the wider public consciousness.

After all, if it hadn’t been for the silver, who amongst us would even have heard of the SS Gairsoppa?

Just found this on the Merchant Navy Association website…..

The Association believed it was an appalling error of judgement and supported the case brought to the High Court by the two daughters of one of the seamen who died aboard the vessel when it was sunk 10 miles off Hastings in 1943.

Should the colour of your ships ensign determine whether those who died in action deserve protection under the Act?

Frankly, it is appalling that anyone could possibly suggest that Merchant Navy Seafarers were less deserving, of protection from desecration of their graves, than Royal Navy Seafarers. A view strongly supported by all those we have discussed this with in the current Royal Navy, the other Services and many seafaring organisations. The campaign leader on this campaign was Dr Peter Marsden from the Hastings Shipwrecked Heritage Centre. Together with members of the MNA contact was made with the two daughters of Petty Officer James Varndell who was one of the 22 seafarers who died aboard the Storaa. James was aboard the ship as one of the DEMS Gunners. The SS Storaa had already ‘led’ a very interesting life as a Danish coaster sunk in a Moroccan port to stop it being captured at the beginning of WWII. It was then raised and put back into service when the area was recaptured.

The case researched by Dr Peter Marsden under the guidance of a solicitor Richard Buxton and was presented by a Barrister in the High Court in October 2005 on a no fee basis. The MNA organised MN Demonstration outside the High Court and many veterans went from the demo to the High Court to hear the case…they made an impressive sight in their blazers. This included Don Hunter who later made a written statement of his own experiences as a Radio Officer in those times and this is also thought to have had great impact.

The judgement reached was that all Merchant Ships in convoy should be considered as “in military service” as required by the Act and as able to received recognition under the Act as any Royal Navy vessel.

The MoD appealed that judgement and this was heard in October 2006 by the three Appeal Court Judges, headed by the master of the rolls, Sir Anthony Clarke. They rejected arguments by the defence secretary, Des Brown, that he had no power under the Military Remains Act to designate the ship as a war grave because it was not “in military service” at the time it was sunk, as required by the act. Their judgement was to support the previous judgement brought to court on behalf James Varndell’s daughters, Rosemary Fogg and Valerie Ledgard.

This has given concern to HM Treasury as many ships may need to be re-purchased from the salvers who bought the ship…£150 for the Storaa in 1985. There are other concerns about how many wrecks can be properly ‘policed’ and whether diving organisations will respect these decisions. However, the case for the Storaa should set a precedent for all future applications. This is still likely to be a long process for acceptance but the MNA will help with any future applications.

Interesting reading and the comment regarding the fact that HM Treasury could be forced to reimburse those who have purchased salvage rights is illuminating.

Although it could be argued that the Gairsoppa had left the convoy the reasons for doing so were a chronic shortage of coal which meant the ship could not have reached her final destination anyway. Does the fact that the slowness of the voyage from Sierra Leone in convoy resulting in the shortage of coal mean that hese seamen should be denied the protection of the PMR Act? They died as a result of enemy action. That surely is enough in itself. After all ATA crews are recognised by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as are civilian casualties.

This matter needs putting to rest once and for all so that NO further war graves can be subject to exploitation by a group or groups of treasure hunters.

Regards,

kev35

Ryan.

You have spectacularly missed the point. I’m not referring the the fields of battle at Gettysburg, rather the Cemeteries in which the dead were interred. As an aside your family must have an abiding hatred of Lee for not following Longstreet’s advice at Gettysburg and for continuing in that totally ridiculous ill conceived attack that became known as Pickett’s Charge.

The whole point here is that the MoD have already set a precedent by making the Storaa a protected place under the PMR Act. If that status and the ships declaration as a war grave is granted to one merchant vessel then why shouldnt the same status be granted to the Gairsoppa? It is a matter of principle and of respect. If the families of those who died on the Storaa can get the MoD’s decision overturned then the same should apply with the Gairsoppa.

I know these are straitened times but £30 million is literally a drop in the ocean.

Regards,

kev35

Of course, certain objections from relatives could be smoothed over with a small sniff of the loot contained within, just as a gesture of goodwill you understand …….

Ryan Short made an interesting comment in that the war is long gone and the crew are dead so what does it matter. But would he feel the same if the graves of those killed at Gettysburg or buried in the American cemeteries in Europe or Arlington were to be disturbed or destroyed because the value of the land had gone up? There would be uproar.

Regards,

kev35

Interesting you should mention that Kev. My Great-great-great grandfather was killed in Pickett’s Charge and we do not have a grave to go to. There’s conjecture that he’s buried in Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, VA, but thanks to the Yankees, we’ll never know for sure.

I think that there’s a bit of a difference here. I would not keep the folks at Gettysburg from managing the fields, and mowing the grass, etc… because my Grandfather might be buried there, and in fact, I’m happy that when I went there more than ten years ago the field was maintained and had some sort of crop in it, making the field appear as if another charge was about to be made. It was a very moving experience walking across that field. I’m personally not opposed to someone using the field for profit, so long as it is done respectfully, and in keeping with the respect due those men’s efforts on the battlefield. If they were going to build a Walmart on it, I certainly would be very angry.

I don’t think that recovery efforts on this ship are like unto building a Walmart at Gettysburg. It is more like a for-profit archaeology expedition that has some interesting side effects and complications. I would be bothered if they barged in without consideration for any human remains that might be found, but I suspect they will be careful, and at any rate, they’ve done everyone a service by finding the wreck. Who ELSE would have looked for the ship, and found it? Who else might have brought some peace to a family member that might have wondered about the ship’s final resting place? I don’t think it’s that sinister, and if they are rewarded for their efforts, so be it.

I do think that the matter bears consideration, but I also think that it’s not so wrong for them to do. At least they are working with the UK government in the matter, and not just thumbing their noses and doing it anyway!

Ryan

The Gairsoppa was a ship of the British India Steam Navigation Company and was under contract to the British Ministry of War Transport. After two unsuccessful attacks by U-101 the third single torpedo struck the ship in the area of the No2 hold. Some reports suggest there was a fire. The ship settled by the bow and sank within 20 minutes. Odyssey Marine’s website suggests that 32 survivors in three lifeboats were machine gunned by the crew of U-101 but I haven’t been able to confirm that.

So of the crew of 85, some 53 appear to have died either on the vessel itself or in the water close to the vessel as it sank. Two of the lifeboats were lost without trace but the third, with four Britains and two Lascars was washed ashore on the Cornish coast some 13 days later. Unfortunately capsizing on the rugged coastline, all but the Second Officer, R H Ayres, were lost. Two of the British sailors aboard the lifeboat, Radio Officer Hampshire and Deck Hand Thomas were washed ashore but had already died as had two unidentified Lascars, all four of whom are buried in Landewedneck Churchyard. Second Officer Ayres was awarded the MBE for his efforts in bringing the lifeboat to Cornwall. It was in fact in Second Officer Ayres own personal testimony that Deck Hand Thomas was identified as a DEMS Gunner. Odyssey Marine’s website also confirms that the Gairsoppa had two DEMS Gunners as part of the ship’s crew.

Bringing this to a more personal level, the oldest member of the crew to die was one of the Lascars, Khalil Rahman, who was 75 years of age. The youngest was Cadet John Martin Woodliffe who was just 17.

I would suggest that the facts that this was a ship operating on contract to the British Ministry of War Transport, was defensively armed and was carrying two trained DEMS Gunners, one of whom I believe to be Marine Price, is more than enough to qualify this ship as being a war grave.

Odyssey Marine sell the artefacts that they salvage, wonder how much a seaman’s boot would go for? Odyssey Marine have also been ordered to return treasure valued at 500 million dollars to the Spanish Government after another of their adventures.

Odyssey Marine have devoted little of their website to the fate of the Gairsoppa, they haven’t even provided a crew list. Rather, it is all about the money and nothing more. They are not going to add to our understanding of the Second World War, or to the knowledge of the fate of those who died either aboard the Gairsoppa or her lifeboats.

Gairsoppa should remain unmolested. If it wasn’t for the 150 million quid’s worth of silver, Odyssey Marine wouldn’t have given a moment’s thought to the 84 men of the Gairsoppa who died as a result of the attack by U-101.

Regards,

kev35

Put another way, why would a 55 year old Royal Marine be aboard the vessel unless he was there as a DEMS Gunner? The DEMS Gunners on the Storaa were all military, seven of them. Perhaps Gairsoppa only had the one 3 inch gun mounted at the stern? DEMS Gunners were drawn from the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Artillery but perhaps with just one gun aboard (if so fitted) it was deemed that one Royal Marine and one or two cross trained Deck Hands were sufficient to form an adequate gun crew?

That sounds very plausible. The only other thing that occurred to me is that this Royal Marine may have been returning to Britain as a passenger. The SS Gairsoppa doesn’t sound large enough from the descriptions of her (3000 GRT?) but I believe it was fairly common for merchant vessels at this time to also carry a small number of passengers, especially between Britain and India.

It begs the question, of course; at what point are such sites no longer “war graves”?

One could suggest never, but as the Governments like to keep many of their secrets for a hundred years perhaps that might be a suitable starting point? But I pity the poor soul who suggests we rip up Tyne Cot sometime in 2018.

regards,

kev35

Put another way, why would a 55 year old Royal Marine be aboard the vessel unless he was there as a DEMS Gunner? The DEMS Gunners on the Storaa were all military, seven of them. Perhaps Gairsoppa only had the one 3 inch gun mounted at the stern? DEMS Gunners were drawn from the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Artillery but perhaps with just one gun aboard (if so fitted) it was deemed that one Royal Marine and one or two cross trained Deck Hands were sufficient to form an adequate gun crew?

Ryan Short made an interesting comment in that the war is long gone and the crew are dead so what does it matter. But would he feel the same if the graves of those killed at Gettysburg or buried in the American cemeteries in Europe or Arlington were to be disturbed or destroyed because the value of the land had gone up? There would be uproar.

Regards,

kev35

An interesting point, of course!

Whatever the issues, I think I am right in saying that the bones of sailors found in the wreck were later buried in Portsmouth?

It begs the question, of course; at what point are such sites no longer “war graves”?

Not according to CWGC:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.aspx?surname=Thomas&initials=N+H&war=2&yearfrom=1941&yearto=1941&force=Merch&nationality=6&send.x=38&send.y=14

I’m fairly sure that gun-crews would be made-up of existing members of the ship’s crew; presumably Norman Thomas was both a gunner when needed and a deck-hand when not.

I remember reading about a merchant ship with British officers but predominantly Indian crew in ‘Condor – Scourge of the Atlantic’; it stated that the young Indian crew made excellent look-outs because their eyesight wasn’t spoiled by reading! I think the ship, which I remember (wrongly) as being called the Um-Bongo (like the fruit drink :rolleyes:), also used Indian crew as gun-crew; they were quite successful in this, bringing down a Condor with a WW1 vintage 3” anti-submarine deck-gun!