Millions in Silver Bullion Found on Sunken WW2 Merchant Ship

It appears that maybe, S.S. GAIRSOPPA could be a war grave, unless some other ruling has been made since 2006.

Article in Daily mail 05/10/2006.

Sisters’ court victory over father’s war grave
Two sisters’ court victory to have their father’s final resting place designated as a war grave could mean that most convoy vessels sunk by enemy action will now be protected.

Defence Secretary Des Browne had appealed after a High Court judge quashed his decision that the steamship Storaa should not be designated a war grave under the Military Remains Act.

He argued that if the ruling was upheld, then most merchant vessels sunk while travelling in convoy during the Second World War would have to be similarly protected.

Petty Officer James Varndell, 44, a Royal Navy gunner assigned to the ship, died with 21 others when the vessel was torpedoed in November 1943 by German E-boats while travelling in convoy.

His daughters Rosemary Fogg and Valerie Ledgard, both from Worthing, West Sussex, accused the Government of unlawfully failing to honour the memory of their father and the shipmates who died with him.

They feared divers would be at liberty to disturb their father’s remains. In 1985 the MoD sold the salvage rights to divers from Hastings Sub Aqua Association for £150.

At a hearing in June, the panel of three appeal judges headed by the Master of the Rolls, Sir Anthony Clarke, was told that High Court judge Mr Justice Newman had misinterpreted the Military Remains Act.

Nigel Teare QC, representing the Defence Secretary, said that the vessel and the grave of PO Varndell could not be protected under the 1986 Act because he died on board a merchant navy ship, not “on military service”.

He said that although the Storaa was armed and there were members of the forces aboard, like all convoy vessels, it was not in service with the Armed Forces but carrying a cargo between Southend and Cardiff.

Sir Anthony, in a ruling given today, agreed with the High Court judge that sailing in convoy could easily “assume the character of a warlike operation” if it was attacked or an attack was impending.

Richard Buxton, the solicitor representing the sisters, who were not in court today, said: “This has been a three-year court fight but it has taken 60 years since the end of the Second World War to get recognition for these Merchant ships on a par with the Royal Navy.”

Rosemary was 12 and Valerie just four when the Storaa went down in the English Channel ten miles south of Hastings.

The Secretary of State must now reconsider the whole issue in the light of the court’s findings. Mr Buxton said that in practice this meant that the court victory had “considerably widened” the scope of vessels eligible for designation as a war grave.

Kev. I have delved into that thread, but it’s heavy reading tonight, but I see YOU certainly did a lot of research yourself regarding the man on the old thread.
Thanks for the help, (Could do with a brain de frag, now and again;))
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Jim.

Here’s the link to the thread about Dominique Biaggi, the Frenchman repatriated from Harrogate. Somewhere in there are the details of how his repatriation worked and a little about the French policy IIRC.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=91989

Regards,

kev35

C.D. Warren, No offence taken, some will agree with what you say, and some with what I say, what would be the point of any forum, if we all agreed on everything, be a bit boring, wouldn’t it?.:)
Jim.

Lincoln .7

I do not care where the permission came from re our soldier in France, at least he was repatriated.

I think that this issue of repatriating war dead from a CWGC cemetery is confusing the issue; I do not see any problem with it apart from the issue of who would bear the cost.

Nothing brings the reality and scale of war to me more than visiting the larger cemeteries of the First World War; personally I think they are a most moving and fitting place for the dead to lie. I doubt enough relatives would want to repatriate their dead to change the impact of the cemeteries…..but then it isn’t up to me.

Now, to get back to your other points, I think it would be very, if not impossible to look, and indeed find many of our lost warships, even with the technology we have today, submarines, in many cases would have been crushed and in pieces when they went down. So, in both cases, whats the point?

Now if it is known that the pilot and crew didn’t manage to get out, and it is a KNOWN fact, and are still in the buried aircraft, AND their are relatives keen on getting their relatives up to give them a decent burial, then s$d the cost, and do the honourable thing, I would bet all those silver bars relatives would pay for the dig themselves…

…it just gets me wound up with so much petty beaurocracy, that we could well do without…

I can understand and respect your feeling in this matter and I agree, to an extent, in some of the simpler cases, but the vast majority of cases will not be that simple. In most cases so much is simply not known!

What about a case where the crash location of a bomber is known (in Germany) but the Nazi authorities didn’t waste too much time searching for the ‘missing’ crew? To complicate matters, what if some of the missing crew aren’t in the wreckage and the relatives of the missing disagree about excavating the wreck site?

There are over 20,000 names of airmen who have no known grave on the Runnymede Memorial, and that is just the missing RAF personnel.

Do not take this the wrong way but what difference does it make what condition the remains are in; it is entirely possible that the remains of those that gave their lives in submarines or ships are in no worse condition that those that gave their lives in aircraft.

Isn’t making such an arbitrary decision yourself another form of ‘petty bureaucracy’?

Absolutely no offence intended.

Kev and Andy. I was relying on memory, and I apologise to you both, I was wrong, I too have been looking, and it would appear that 400 British and Australians were found in a mass grave, and they were exhumed and given a proper burial. Mega senior moment.I assumed I remembered it was just one man.

Andy. What I meant was that in 1980, a local Solicitor Mossop, long dead, went onto an Anglo Romano site with some Archaeologists, and he came away with a shed, and I mean a shed load of Samian ware and other shards of pottery, and a sweet jar of coins. This is what I meant about anything went then, nothing seemed to have been documented and coins etc certainly were not taken away by the Archaeologists at the scene. Whether they were handed over at a later date I have no idea.
Jim

Lincoln .7

Jim

I’d be interested in the story, too. I have searched but can find nothing.

Let us have the name and details. I’m sure Britain at War magazine would love to cover the story.

As to “repatriation being allowed after 1982” I think you will find this is in respect of current casualties, hence the repatriations from Iraq or Afghanistan we have seen at Lyneham and now Brize. Casualties from both World wars who are found now, or indeed post 1982, are still buried at the nearest ‘open’ CWGC cemetery in theatre. Never repatriated.

As to your earlier comment about “pre November 1980” methods with Time Team I am at a loss to understand what you mean?

Kev. I will let you know re the soldier in question when I can. I did say it was perhaps a year or two ago, and according to you and Warren, repatriation was allowed after 1982, so it’s the case of finding this mans name.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

This policy remained in force until after the Falklands War of 1982…

The majority of the British Falklands War dead were repatriated after the conflict; at least those that were buried on land were. Some relatives chose to have their dead remain on the Falkland Islands. Of course, a great many of the dead (of both sides) were lost in ships or aircraft at sea and a number of vessels are designated as war-graves.

Ironically the Argentine authorities did not take up the offer to have their war dead repatriated, stating that ‘they were already buried in Argentine territory’! I’m not sure how their relatives felt about this stance or how soon they were able to visit the graves.

[QUOTE=Tangmere1940;1806628]Tony Robinson, and others of his team, don’t use trowles to dig, they use JCBs and make a mess of any site they dig on.I have yet to find out what happens to their finds of value.

Lincoln – you will find that all their conventional ‘digs’ (and I am not talking about the aviation ones) are conducted by archaeologists and a full post-excavation report is completed and filed and finds properly catalogued and housed.

ndy. I was talking about NOV 1980, when just about anything went on, on site.NNot todays methods.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Jim.

I think you’re getting carried away again.

Still waiting for you to furnish details of the Great War soldier exhumed from place unknown and reburied here in the UK. I’d be very interested in the details. Personally, I can’t see that that would be allowed to happen as it would set a precedent. It was decided because of the huge number of casualties in the Great War that it would be both too expensive and inexpedient to return the dead for burial in their home towns. It became policy that they were either buried where they fell or were concentrated into Cemeteries given in perpetuity by the Country in which they fell and maintained and managed by the Imperial (later Commonwealth) War Graves Commission. This policy remained in force until after the Falklands War of 1982. With the Gulf Wars I believe the bodies were allowed to be repatriated on both compassionate grounds and because it was uncertain that Cemeteries would be properly maintained and respected in Countries which remained hostile to us.

I’m unsure what you mean by your reference to the French. I do know that at least some French Airmen were repatriated after the Second World War at the request of their families. This was a French policy of the time which I believe remains in place today. My own experience regarding a French airman is that of Serjent Chef Dominique Biaggi of 346 Squadron who died when his aircraft exploded on return to Elvington following a raid on the German defences at Octeville on September 10th 1944. His body was interred at Harrogate’s Stonefall Cemetery and later returned to france where he was reinterred in his home town of Marseille. There is a multi page thread all about him somewhere on here.

Regarding the recovery of downed airmen in the Uk I believe you are getting rather fanciful with your ideas. Sponsored exhumations? The idea of them being exhumed is to give them the decent and dignified burial they richly deserve without turning it into a circus.

There are only so many ways in which anyone can say that they think the salvaging of the silver from the Gairsoppa is distasteful, immoral and just fundamentally wrong and I think I’ve said them all.

Regards,

kev35

Tony Robinson, and others of his team, don’t use trowles to dig, they use JCBs and make a mess of any site they dig on.I have yet to find out what happens to their finds of value.

Lincoln – you will find that all their conventional ‘digs’ (and I am not talking about the aviation ones) are conducted by archaeologists and a full post-excavation report is completed and filed and finds properly catalogued and housed.

There are a number of points on this main story thread that I will come back on, but I am pretty busy for the next six or seven days. Just to say, though, (and to clarify a point) that whilst the wreck in question is outside territorial waters the PMR Act does still apply. As for DOT granting authority, they may well have done so in the context of approval to enter the wreck and salvage the cargo but their remit does not extend to the granting of a PMR Licence (which would still be required) so far as I know.

Yes, but I also made the point that they do not compromise the archaeology. They simply can only do as much as the three days allow.

Apologies if my comment was dismissive -it was not intended to be and I am well aware that many amateurs work with a great deal of knowledge.:)

Sorry, Linc but they do not JCB through archaeology. And of course metal detectors are useful and serve a purpose but under supervision. That’s the point. Random digging by amateurs who don’t know what they are doing but think they do is not helpful!

Congratulations on your 5,000 th Post. Pete, metal detectorists do not go detecting randomly, myself, I put in a hell of a lot of research, ie, Roman settlements,just to name but one, it was also using a metal detector that helped me to find the Lancaster.
I am well aware of the point your making re the JCBs, and in normal circumstances they are never needed, as a lot of things I have found have “Worked” their way to the surface, which thay are known to do.
As you stated, those on Time Team are on a 3 day time limit.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

C.D. Warren. I do not care where the permission came from re our soldier in France, at least he was repatriated.I don’t do Politics, I leave that to those who are in now who know even less than I.:)
Now, to get back to your other points, I think it would be very, if not impossible to look, and indeed find many of our lost warships, even with the technology we have today, submarines, in many cases would have been crushed and in pieces when they went down.So, in both cases, whats the point?.
NOW aircraft, if the pilot and crew managed to get out of their doomed aircraft, but upon crashing, went down, like the Lanc I dug up 27 feet down, whats the point in digging it up?.
Now if it is known that the pilot and crew didn’t manage to get out,and it is a KNOWN fact, and are still in the buried aircraft, AND their are relatives keen on getting their relatives up to give them a decent burial, then s$d the cost, and do the honourable thing, I would bet all those silver bars relatives would pay for the dig themselves, however, I would also bet that some large Company would foot the bill.They died so we could argue/discuss everything we do on this forum, IN ENGLISH not German.
No disrespect Warren, it just gets me wound up with so much petty beaurocracy, that we could well do without.And given our dead heros a decent funeral is one of them, when they are still in the aircraft they were flying.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Sorry, Linc but they do not JCB through archaeology. And of course metal detectors are useful and serve a purpose but under supervision. That’s the point. Random digging by amateurs who don’t know what they are doing but think they do is not helpful!

I was making a comparison as to how the French allowed it to happen there, but the relativs of buried aircraft here in the U.K. cannot recover their relatives who remain in the wreckage of a buried aircraft.

I wouldn’t have thought that the French had anything to do with it; surely it would be between the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the relatives of the dead soldier?

I agree with everybody who has posted that where human remains are known to be at a known crashed aircraft site, that these human remains should be recovered but, and this is the crux of the matter, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Should every aircraft where crew are missing be excavated? And what about those lost at sea? The Royal Navy lost close to a hundred submarines in WW2; should the crews of these be recovered? What about the missing from the British Army; thousands are still missing from WW2 alone?

Sorry, but at some point cost must become an issue.

“Tony Robinson, and others of his team, don’t use trowles to dig, they use JCBs and make a mess of any site they dig on.I have yet to find out what happens to their finds of value.”

All the JCBs are doing is clering the topsoil which is the method employed on any professional dig unless there are exceptionally believed to be artefacts in the topsoil.

Pete. C’mon, I have seen a JCB dig a trench out on that program, that one of the team stands in THEN he may use his trowel and little brush. Yes I know they have only 3 days, but you wouldn’t know the battle that metal detectorists had with with Archaeologists in the 1979 or early 80s, when they accused us of spoiling their digs, NOW, they are happy to have metal detector users help them whilst on a dig/site.
A fact I am pleased has happened.
Make Love not war, if you can’t beat em, join em.;)
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Just out of interest, why shouldn’t his relatives be allowed to do this?

Warren, I was making a comparison as to how the French allowed it to happen there, but the relativs of buried aircraft here in the U.K. cannot recover their relatives who remain in the wreckage of a buried aircraft.
I would like to think it could happen, so they could be in a little corner of the very Country they fought and died for.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

“Tony Robinson, and others of his team, don’t use trowles to dig, they use JCBs and make a mess of any site they dig on.I have yet to find out what happens to their finds of value.”

Sorry, but that is simply not true. There is an argument about the speed at which the digs take place but they only reveal what they have time to reveal. The digs are highly supervised and all the key participants are professional archaeologists and the actual archaeology uses trowels and similar implements only. If there are skeletons or any human remains nothing can be touched until the authorities are informed and forensic archaeologists attend the dig. All the artedfacts recovered go for cataloguing and many for ultimate exhibition and/or library storage.

All the JCBs are doing is clering the topsoil which is the method employed on any professional dig unless there are exceptionally believed to be artefacts in the topsoil.