Millions in Silver Bullion Found on Sunken WW2 Merchant Ship

Millions in Silver Bullion Found on Sunken WW2

Fascinating discussion, but for how long have “war graves” been so classified? Was not the ” Mary Rose” a war grave?

The article from the ‘Mail Online’ linked by Andy mentions ‘a gunner named Norman Thomas’ who was 20 years old.

Not according to CWGC:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.aspx?surname=Thomas&initials=N+H&war=2&yearfrom=1941&yearto=1941&force=Merch&nationality=6&send.x=38&send.y=14

http://www.hmsroyaloak.co.uk/

Quite apart from it being a very good website packed with information and well worth an hour of anyone’s time, it illustrates how the “rules can be bent” in specific circumstances for diving to take place.

I suspect somewhere among the names on the CWGC Register we will find at least one other Naval or Marine Rating.

The article from the ‘Mail Online’ linked by Andy mentions ‘a gunner named Norman Thomas’ who was 20 years old.

But removing fuel oil for environmental needs is a different thing than removing valuable bullion from a wreck which, ordinarily (if the PMR Act is applied) would not get a Licence for the site to be dived or, at the very least, entered/salvaged.

I was thinking of The Royal Oak as well, having visited the site on Orkney severl times. I suppose in that particlar case exceptional circumstances would have been argued to try to diminish, so far as possible, the environmental effects of the oil draining into Scapa Flow.

Does the PMR Act actually prohibit any interference with the wreck; or just unauthorised interference?

I was trying to think of a case where there was a wreck that certainly contained remains but those remains would be relatively easy to recover.

I (too ;)) came up with HMS Royal Oak that was famously torpedoed by U-47 in Scapa Flow. She capsized in 30 metres with the loss of 833 members of her crew, many of them ‘boy’ seamen. While HMS Royal Oak is protected by the PMR Act she has been worked on several times to remove some 3000 tons of fuel-oil.

My guess is that even if SS Gairsoppa were protected by the PMR Act the salvage would still go ahead.

Just spotted this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043067/SS-Gairsoppa-sunken-silver-treasure-salvaged.html

I really would be quite surprised if she was not DEMS fitted, but even if she were not then the principles remain the same; why should the sailors of HMS Royal Oak be protected, for example, along with the merchant seaman on the Storaa…but not those who went down on Gairsoppa?

Ok, I get the idea of protecting graves, but seriously, the people involved ARE dead, they are not going to be happy, or sad, either if their bones are rustled a bit. I think that the recovery is fine, and would be fine either way. If there’s something of value down there, ask the recovery crew to be careful, and sensitive, and let them at it. I’d say that silver, gold, or bricks and mud. In this case, the value of the cargo makes it worth the effort to recover it, so more power to them. It’s not like those bones might not be disturbed by all of the little fishies anyway.

Ryan

That’s the way I look at it.

Aircraft have been excavated when there was always a chance of human
remains being found. An example being the excavation by Time Team of
the Spitfire flown by Sergeant Paul Klipsch from No. 92 Squadron.
Although it wasn’t admitted on the programme, remains were recovered.

As long as these things are handled with some sensitivity, I don’t see a
problem. What I’ve seen of Treasure Quest, when they do find human
remains, everything stops until they get permission to continue.

Andy I believe you are right. I think there may be enough evidence to have the Gairsoppa declared a war grave and to be protected under the PMR Act.

Regards,

kev35

I think the ‘preservation’ of this wreck is all a bit of a red herring – no pun intended.

This is all about apparent double-standards over a permit to salvage – especially when set against the case of the Storaa. I had forgotten about that case, although it was the test case (I believe) that effectively established British flagged merchant vessels came under the PMR Act.

I am sure of that, Linc – I didn’t mean to imply that the profits wouldn’t be worth it, but he is in unchartered waters – no one has salvaged this deep before, so there will be a risk, however calculated.

Although any risks will be purely financial.

If their TV documentaries are anything to go by, they do spend a great deal
of time and money searching the world’s oceans, finding nothing.

The ships they use must be very expensive to run and maintain, along with the constant
repairs to Zeus.

As far as us only getting 20%, it’s not a bad return for having to do nothing.

I look forward to seeing how they found it, when the next series airs on
Discovery.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/treasure-quest/treasure-quest.html

Marine salvage is a business which has been going for many years and care is taken regarding legal aspects of ownership, otherwise the recovery costs can never be recovered.

In the current case the discovery of any human remains by the company involved results in a pre agreed system coming into use. This has been shown on other filmed sections of their operations. Great respect is shown and the knowledge of the loss is given greater publicity which only serves to highlight the courage of the convoy crews.

Leaving wrecks unsurveyed and unrecovered does not help with preservation.

Ok, I get the idea of protecting graves, but seriously, the people involved ARE dead, they are not going to be happy, or sad, either if their bones are rustled a bit. I think that the recovery is fine, and would be fine either way. If there’s something of value down there, ask the recovery crew to be careful, and sensitive, and let them at it. I’d say that silver, gold, or bricks and mud. In this case, the value of the cargo makes it worth the effort to recover it, so more power to them. It’s not like those bones might not be disturbed by all of the little fishies anyway.

Ryan

Kev. Don’t underestimate yourself, I think you would be an ideal person to do the job.However, I think finding the time, considering what you have to do every day, hard to do.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

I think it would take someone with far greater research skills and a far better vocabulary than me to try and take on the Government on a matter such as this.

Regards,

kev35

Kev

If your assumptions are proved correct is this a matter which you, as a private individual, can take up with the authorities or not?

Richard Gray’s latest find raises some interesting points.

Firstly, I haven’t been able to confirm it but I suspect the Gairsoppa was a Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship (DEMS). The British Government had started strenghtening merchant vessels to carry defensive weapons as early as 1938. By the end of 1940 some 3,500 merchant vessels had been armed out of an intended 5,500. This armament varied widely throughout the Merchant Fleet and indeed throughout the war. At the time of the Gairsoppa’s sinking many merchant vessels were armed with one or two guns of 3 to 6 inches and a couple of Lewis Guns. Again as early as 1938, military personnel from the Royal Artillery, Royal Navy and Royal Marines were being trained to become DEMS Gunners. In light of this it is difficult to see how the Government could suggest that the Storaa, or indeed any other DEMS vessel, could not be deemed to be in military service. In fact the Storaa was carrying a total of seven DEMS Gunners who were all military personnel. In 2007 the Storaa became a protected place under the PMR Act.

Returning to the Gairsoppa, it would be interesting to confirm or otherwise whether she was a DEMS vessel but there is perhaps one strong and significant clue that she was. Among the casualties is listed the following man…..

CH/24138 Marine William George Price.

He was 55 years of age and hailed from Worcester.He was married and he is commemorated on the Chatham Naval Memorial. Many DEMS Gunners were reservists called back into service and I strongly suspect that Marine Price was a DEMS Gunner. I suspect somewhere among the names on the CWGC Register we will find at least one other Naval or Marine Rating.

Using that logic, and if subsequent confirmation of Marine Price’s duties can be found, then surely the fact that the majority of the crew remain missing should be enough to ensure that the Gairsoppa is granted the same status as the Storaa and given protection under the PMR Act.

Regards,

kev35

Kev. I have delved into that thread, but it’s heavy reading tonight, but I see YOU certainly did a lot of research yourself regarding the man on the old thread.
Thanks for the help, (Could do with a brain de frag, now and again;))
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I commend the thread to you, Linc. I became absorbed in it in my earlier days here particularly as it had been revived after quite a long interval, if memory serves. Kev did an extraordinary job and in doing so brought much pleasure, if that’s the right word, to the individual concerned. I learned something about Kev from the thread, as well.:)

In 1985 the MoD sold the salvage rights to divers from Hastings Sub Aqua Association for £150.

Salvage rights sold for £150!!!

Well at least the MOD is looking after the taxpayer’s best interest…

…pity about the subsequent £200,000 legal bill defending the decision to sell in the courts! :rolleyes: