Millions in Silver Bullion Found on Sunken WW2 Merchant Ship

…the relatives of a soldier who was killed in WW1 was exhumed from his grave in some wartime graveyard and brought back to the UK to be buried. How were his relatives allowed to do this?

Just out of interest, why shouldn’t his relatives be allowed to do this?

Kev. I think most of your questions and answerers all come down to one thing,
MONEY.

As for the WW1 soldier, I will try and find out.

It realy Pi$$es me off when all or Governments spend millions on things they later realise have gone pear shaped, but shy away from such a simple thing, as relatives wanting to exhume any of our downed aircraft, and the remains of the pilot/crew recovered and given a decent burial. I have no doubt whatsoever, that the relatives would even go to the expence of the excavation themselves.
I agree with you, there is more to this than meets the eye.
Has anyone taken a case such as we are discussing,
to the High Court?.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Jim.

“I have known many people who have/do work there over the yrs, and would have stated any records would have, along with many more been destroyed in the blitz.when Trinity House, at Tower Hill, got bombed.”

Merchant Navy Records do survive, I obtained some not so long ago myself from Greenwich I believe. I don’t have the references to hand but there is a lot of information out there.

“I don’t know, whether a set time limit should be imposed as to how long bodies could be left in the deep, perhaps 100yrs, so that any family of the deceased would by then be dead, so It wouldn’t affect the immediate family.
It’s a very hard thing to decide.”

It’s not about recovering bodies from ‘the deep.’ This is purely an exercise in recovering an expensive commodity. If it wasn’t for the silver there would be no interest in diving on the Gairsoppa. If this happens it will be spun to deflect the knowledge that this is simply a money making scheme. It will be touted as ‘cargo from doomed merchant vessel reaches destination – sacrifice of merchant seamen not in vain.’ Which is, of course, utter tosh. The cargo will not be going to its intended destination, 120 million of it will be going to the salvage company. It’s all very subjective but to me such sites should be left alone. While not espousing what ‘urban explorers’ do, I think the motto of many of those who use the 28 Days Later site is particularly appropriate here – take only photographs, leave only footprints.

“Getting back to the MoDs stance on this, if the relatives of a downed aircraft want to exhume the body of the pilot, then they should have the “Human right” to bury their relative without question.”

This is probably one for Andy, but let’s assume a group of historians/researchers/archaeologists have established the crash site of a Battle of Britain Hurricane/Spitfire. Through painstaking research they have established that it could only be the aircraft of Sgt. X of XXX Squadron who went missing in combat on such and such a date. They have established that it is extremely likely that the remains of Sgt. X remain with the aircraft as some 71 years on he is still recorded as missing and recorded as such at Runnymede. The MoD will not issue a license for such a recovery. One has to ask the reasons why. Do they just hide behind the PMR Act? Is it because they already KNOW Sgt. X is in the aircraft? Is it on cost grounds? Is it because they are fearful of public reaction if it became known that the MoD were aware of the location of the remains but had chosen to do nothing about it? You tell me.

“Kev, you should know this, recently, well, within the last couple of yrs, the relatives of a dead soldier who was killed in WW1 was exhumed from his grave in some wartime graveyard and brought back to the U.K. to be buried in the U.K.How were his relatives allowed to do this?.”

No, Jim, I don’t. Perhaps you’d care to ‘dig up’ some links and enlighten me?

Regards,

kev35

[QUOTE=kev35;1806313]Jim.

I think you’ll find that Andy was referring to the Merchant Navy Memorial on Tower Hill

I still believe this to be fundamentally wrong, that the MoD can drive a coach and horses through the PMR Act if their palms have enough silver placed in them. It makes an absolute mockery of the MoD’s stance of refusing licences to exhume the remains of aircrew even when the relatives of the deceased have supported the efforts to have their loved ones exhumed.

Kev. Thanks for the Info, The reason I thought it was at Trinity House, speaks for itself. I have known many people who have/do work there over the yrs, and would have stated any records would have, along with many more been destroyed in the blitz.when Trinity House, at Tower Hill, got bombed.
In 1980 I dug down 28 feet, to the original sea bed, with a JCB and recovered a load of remains,, (Engines etc) from a downed Lancaster, there was no need to go and get a licence to dig. and no remains were found.
I don’t know, whether a set time limit should be imposed as to how long bodies could be left in the deep, perhaps 100yrs, so that any family of the deceased would by then be dead, so It wouldn’t affect the immediate family.
It’s a very hard thing to decide.
I think any gold, silver, should be donated to Charities like Cancer research, which is very close to my heart, but treasure, say, a golden goblet, and such artifacts should go into our National Museums.
I used to do, many yrs ago, metal detecting, the Archaeologists, at the time moaned like hell, because we used a small garden trowel to dig up what we found. I found loads of Roman/ Anglo Saxon, etc bits and bobs, coins, and even bones, some were examined and were found to be human.
Tony Robinson, and others of his team, don’t use trowles to dig, they use JCBs:eek: and make a mess of any site they dig on.I have yet to find out what happens to their finds of value.
Getting back to the MoDs stance on this, if the relatives of a downed aircraft want to exhume the body of the pilot, then they should have the “Human right” to bury their relative without question.
Kev, you should know this, recently, well, within the last couple of yrs, the relatives of a dead soldier who was killed in WW1 was exhumed from his grave in some wartime graveyard and brought back to the U.K. to be buried in the U.K.How were his relatives allowed to do this?.
I think the MoD are “Cherry picking” what they allow and what they want. 30 bars (Or more)of Silver spring to mind?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Remains are only left unmolested if there be no treasure lads

You wouldn’t expect anything else now, would you?

ppp – so why should anyone want to recover it for no reward? I do not follow your logic. And you go onto say that you would propose destroying, what is effectively a war grave, to prevent theft.

A Seacunny is a Quartermaster, a Serang is a Bosun and a Tindal is a Bosun’s Mate. A Butler is a Second Steward, or on small vessels a Chief Steward and a Bhandary is a cook.

Regards,

kev35

I don’t think that anybody could argue with your last statement on moral grounds but there are clearly financial arguments to be made.

I almost dread to ask what a ‘seacunny’ is? 😮

Andy, You mentioned the possibility of the names of the missing 11 being at Tower Hill, do you mean they may be in the records of Trinity House, at Tower Hill?.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Jim.

I think you’ll find that Andy was referring to the Merchant Navy Memorial on Tower Hill.

It’s interesting that some of the Lascars have their ratings given in English whilst others are referred to by their Indian ratings such as Tindal and Seacunny.

Also of note is that there are only 78 names in the list Richard Gray found whereas the death toll on the Gairsoppa has been listed as both 81 and 85.

I still believe this to be fundamentally wrong, that the MoD can drive a coach and horses through the PMR Act if their palms have enough silver placed in them. It makes an absolute mockery of the MoD’s stance of refusing licences to exhume the remains of aircrew even when the relatives of the deceased have supported the efforts to have their loved ones exhumed.

Regards,

kev35

As I know not the answer to the following, perhaps somewon can help.
The question is, is this ship in International waters?, and therefor the silver, for want of better words, “Up for grabs by anyone who can get it?.” or as it appeares to be registered in G.B. although out of our juristiction,(Due to it’s location) the ship and cargo remain the property of G.B.?.
Is this likely to lead to some International Maritime legal ruling, or is there legislation already in place to cover things like this.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

They have a licence from the DoT.

“Oh I’m all in favour of recovering it, but the vast majority of it should be taken by the government,….”

The two parts of that are contradictory. If the vast majority of the value is taken by the government then no private individual is going to recover it, are they? And the government is unlikely to do so. So your wish is unlikely to be granted. I think you shot yourself in the foot.

Not at all. If no other wants to recover it under those terms then it stays. If there is a major threat of theft then just blow the whole thing up.

Given that in the grand scheme of things, 30M is ****** all. maybe they should give it to the RNLI.

The majority of the money goes to the greedy recovery guy, and probably some will work its way to some Department of Transport people in some way or another. I doubt the taxpayer will see any benefit from it.

Given that in the grand scheme of things, 30M is ****** all. maybe they should give it to the RNLI.

…are we really saying that the depth of sacrifice of those who died…..is measured only by the value of the cargo they carried?

No, but has anybody ever bothered to dive a ROV on a lost Battle-of-the-Atlantic merchant vessel at such depth before? Perhaps if any good were to come from this it will be to highlight the remarkable condition that thousands of similar vessels could be in…

…not that anybody will be bothered to investigate them if they’re not full of gold bullion.

The whole point here is the double standard being employed by the Government. Andy can explain it far better than I but there are aviation archaeological groups who know the location of downed aircraft which still have human remains on board. The MoD will not grant licences for their recovery because under the terms PMR Act they remain a protected place. I believe in at least one case even relatives have petitioned for the recovery but to no avail. As Andy previously said the Gairsoppa would normally full under the remit of the PMR Act, but in this case they are willing to allow salvage operations, not for the recovery of the dead, but for 20% of 150 million quids worth of silver. Somehow it seems fitting that it’s silver rather than gold.

The Gairsoppa is variously recorded as being lost very late on the 16th or very early on the 17th of February. The Commander of U-101 commenced his attacks late on the 16th but the vessel was still afloat at 00:20 on the 17th when Kapitan Mengersen decided that further attacks in such heavy seas were futile anyway as the vessel was certain to sink from the torpedo strike and the ensuing fire. One cannot imagine what it was like for those who remained on board or were forced into the cold waters. It is even harder to imagine what it was like for those who managed to get into lifeboats only to succumb to their injuries and exposure. It is nigh on impossible to imagine the relief of the handful of survivors on sighting the Cornish coast only for all but one to drown in their efforts to get ashore.

The fate of the Gairsoppa is unremarkable, just one of some 3,500 Allied merchant vessels lost during the Battle of the Atlantic. The last resting place of many are known, but no attempt to dive on or salvage any of them has taken place because they have no monetary value. Some 70 years on, are we really saying that the depth of sacrifice of those who died serving their Country is measured only by the value of the cargo they carried?

Regards,

kev35

“Oh I’m all in favour of recovering it, but the vast majority of it should be taken by the government,….”

The two parts of that are contradictory. If the vast majority of the value is taken by the government then no private individual is going to recover it, are they? And the government is unlikely to do so. So your wish is unlikely to be granted. I think you shot yourself in the foot.

There you go courtesy Hugh Maclean WW2Talk.

Lest We Forget

ABDUL AZIZ, TINDAL. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL BARIK, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). 16th February 1941. Age 44.Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL GHAFUR, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL HAKIM, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL JABBAR, SEACUNNY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL KARIM, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL KARIM, OILER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL LATIF, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL MAJID, SEACUNNY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL MALIK, TINDAL. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL QUDUS, SERANG. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL RASHID, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUL SATAR, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ABDUR RASHID, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ALI AHMAD, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ALI AHMAD, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
AMIN RAHMAN, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
AQAL ALI, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
CARMICHAEL, Third Engineer Officer, ANDREW PARKER, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
CUMMINGS, Chief Officer, GEORGE DENTON, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
DUPUY, Purser, WILLIAM FREDERICK, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
FAZL KARIM, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
FERNANDES, THOMAS MARTINO. GENERAL SERVANT. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
FIROZ ALI, DONKEYMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
FYFE, Chief Engineer Officer, PETER EWING, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
HAFIZ UR RAHMAN, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
HAMPSHIRE, ROBERT FREDERICK. RADIO OFFICER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Merchant Navy. 16th February 1941.
HINTON, Deck Hand, WILLIAM THOMAS, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
HYLAND, Master, GERALD, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
ILLAHI BAKHSH, WINCHMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
JABAL HAQ, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
JALAL AHMAD, OILER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
JETU, TOPASS. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
KHALIL RAHMAN, SERANG. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
KHURSHID MIAN, CASSAB. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
KHURSHID MIAN, SEACUNNY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
KISHORI, TOPASS. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
LANG, Second Engineer Officer, ROBERT, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
LEONG KONG, CARPENTER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Merchant Navy. n.d. between 14/02/1941 and 16/02/1941.
LUCAS, Junior Engineer Officer, WILFRED, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
MAJIB UL HAQ, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MAJID MIAN, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MANGAL, TOPASS. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MAQBUL HUSAIN, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MAQBUL HUSAIN, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MORRISON, Third Officer, CAMPBELL JOSEPH, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
MOTIHAR RAHMAN, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MUHAMMAD, BHANDARY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MUHAMMAD HARUN, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MUHAMMAD ISLAM, LAMP TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MULAQAT JUMA, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MUNIR AHMAD, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
MURSHID MIAN, BHANDARY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
NAZIR AHMAD, TINDAL. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
NISAR AHMAD, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
NUR AHMAD, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
NUR UL HAQ, SEACUNNY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
ODD, Fourth Engineer Officer, HUGH HENRY, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
PAIS, ACACIO ROZARIO. BUTLER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
PRICE, Marine, WILLIAM GEORGE, CH/24138. S.S. Gairsoppa. Royal Navy.
RAJA MIAN, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
RODRIGUES, BOY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
RODRIGUES, C. COOK (BAKER). S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
RODRIGUES, E.C. PANTRYMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
RODRIGUES, TIOFILO. GENERAL SERVANTS. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
SALAMAT ULLAH, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
SAYID AHMAD, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow).Indian Merchant Navy.
SAYID RAHMAN, CASSAB. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow).Indian Merchant Navy.
SHEIKH KINU, BOY. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
SHERAZ UL HAQ, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
SHUJAT ALI, OILER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
SIKANDAR BADSHAH, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
TAZ UL MULK, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
THOMAS, NORMAN HASKELL. DECK HAND. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Merchant Navy. 1st March 1941.
TUFAIL AHMAD, TRIMMER. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
WALI MIAN, SEAMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
WILAYAT ALI, FIREMAN. S.S. GAIRSOPPA (Glasgow). Indian Merchant Navy.
WOODLIFFE, Cadet, JOHN MARTIN, S.S. Gairsoppa (Glasgow).
__________________
“If Blood was the price
We had to pay for our freedom
Then the Merchant Ship Sailors
Paid it in full”

As I know not the answer to the following, perhaps somewon can help.
The question is, is this ship in International waters?, and therefor the silver, for want of better words, “Up for grabs by anyone who can get it?.” or as it appeares to be registered in G.B. although out of our juristiction,(Due to it’s location) the ship and cargo remain the property of G.B.?.
Is this likely to lead to some International Maritime legal ruling, or is there legislation already in place to cover things like this.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I wonder how they would feel if we went and dug up their family to check if there was any gold buried with them? I don’t think they would like it!

I think we have to be realistic about the costs of recovering this bullion and the fact that there are absolutely no guarantees that the salvor will get all, most, or any, of it to the surface.

As for what the government’s 20% should be spent on; does it really matter? In relative terms it is a tiny amount of cash and successive governments have wasted (and are going to waste) tens-of-billions more than this on NHS ‘Private Finance Initiatives’…

…but I really don’t want this to become another thread about the government and the NHS! 🙂

It’s the principle, but yes it could be put to good use. For example they could invest it in grit for the roads, or some cleaning trucks to clean the white line on the side of the road. These would actually reduce road deaths (moreso than the Police Talivans ever will).

According to the internet, some 81 men died who had been aboard the Gairsoppa. Of those some 32 are said to have boarded lifeboats. From that it appears that in the region of fifty of those men went down with the Gairsoppa. If that is so then surely it is a war grave? Bearing in mind that licences have been refused for aircraft recoveries in which it is suspected the body remains, how can a license even be considered when the graves of up to fifty men will be disturbed?

Or perhaps the British Government consider £600,000 per man to be an acceptable price for placing their morals in the back of some dark and dusty cupboard.

Disgusting.

Regards,

kev35

Oh I’m all in favour of recovering it, but the vast majority of it should be taken by the government, not some private individual. The treasures recovery should be done, IMO, to prevent anyone else recovering it or thinking there is a reason to go poking around there. Ideally it should then be put in museums along with whatever else can be found from the ship.

Andy, You mentioned the possibility of the names of the missing 11 being at Tower Hill, do you mean they may be in the records of Trinity House, at Tower Hill?.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Personally I think the recovery of the bullion is a good thing; not because of the money but because it brings the sacrifices of the merchant seamen made during the long (often forgotten) Battle-of-the-Atlantic into sharp focus. I concede the points made about the double-standard displayed by the government with regard to the PMR Act but I think that it is important that if human remains are found within the wreck they should be photographed for the public to see; what better way to bring the reality of the sacrifice that these men made into the (popular) public domain, a sacrifice that will soon be gone from human memory.

I’ve read much about the Titanic, HMS Hood and the Bismark but nothing I’ve read has had as much impact as the images of empty shoes or boots lying side-by-side on the lonely sea-floor; the preservatives in the leather having protected them when all other organic matter disappeared.

We spend a lot of time on this forum ‘celebrating’ (that’s not really the right word, I know) conflicts of the past and, while proper respect should always be shown, I think that we shouldn’t be ‘squeamish’ (again, not really the right word) when it comes to confronting the reality of those conflicts.

I suppose it is not very likely but would/could consideration be given under the Act and directives, if relatives were to request exhumation and reburial?