Nelson Mandela

Yes, I listened to a more reflective account of Mandela on BBC Radio4 yesterday ca.1600 and was impressed by the political and personal journey Pik Botha made. What do you think was the main reason for the change of stance of the South African Government at the end of the 1980s?

Most definitely the beginning of the end of the USSR….glastnost, perestroika, destruction of the Berlin Wall…etc.

That was the main, but not the only, reason.

There was also the admission obviously that African political development had to be accomodated of course.
In this regard, PW Botha (different to Pik Botha, btw) set about the dismantelling of petty apartheid unilaterally. It made sense.

But as long as the ANC and SACP were bedfellows, and the USSR, via proxies such as Cuba in neighbouring Angola, were exporting communism, electoral or real change would quite simply not have happened.

The signs or implosion were there in the mid 80’s already, when the USSR was importing grain from the USA.
South Africa even bought a few T-72 tanks direct from Poland in the late 1980’s for evaluation, under Operation Cabernet.

The events at the very end of the 1980’s might have been a surprise to the public, but all signs are that people in the know read the signs quite accurately.

Umkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing created by Nelson Mandela, were actually extremely innefficient, the murderous intent aside.
Soundly trounced when they attempted to take on the South African Military, they resorted to planting bombs aimed at innocent civilians.

Even this campaign was ineffective, except for one or two events, like the car bomb on crowded Church Street in Pretoria during rush hour in 1983, that killed 19 people and maimed 220.

I doubt the papers will be giving such inconvenient events too much coverage though.

Errr MANDELA?………:D
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Sorry Linc – what is it you are not spending anymore on – I can’t make out the letters……

Thatcher was a key player too – I wonder if that was mentioned…,

Petty apartheid was dismantelled largely by PW Botha, and from the early 1980’s for example, things like segregated busses were a thing of the past.
PW Botha offered to release Nelson Mandela in 1982, and again in 1985, if he simply renounced violence. This is a pretty normal and logical request, if you ask me.
Nelson Mandela rejected it.

Nelson Mandela himself paid public tribute to Botha for a wide range of things Botha did to hasten the end of apartheid from early on, but naturally, this doesn’t fit the narritive of the fairytale for the press, so most people remain utterly ignorant.

Like I said, there are many myths….

Yes, I listened to a more reflective account of Mandela on BBC Radio4 yesterday ca.1600 and was impressed by the political and personal journey Pik Botha made. What do you think was the main reason for the change of stance of the South African Government at the end of the 1980s?

I HAVE, It’s her indoors that hasn’t. I refuse to spend any more money on CHRISTMAS…….:D…….Costa lot, just for the ONE day, that CHRISTMAS….is all about.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Thought you told us you’d finished your shopping!;)

Just been out to get one or two CHRISTMAS..:D pressies, and saw a DVD re “The path to life”,regarding Mandela, IIRC, they don’t even bury him till Sunday FCS.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I see you more as a horses head for hire.. :p

I would sooner be the Horses head, than it’s a$$……..:highly_amused:
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Wilhelm – were the benefits you referred to equally available to blacks and whites and equally provided?

The benefits are means tested.

The disability grant has morphed a sort of catch all payment used to alleviate poverty.

Of course, with millions of legal and illegal people from other parts of Africa (up to 5 million from Zimbabwe alone!) you would wonder how affordable it is in the long run.

The xenophobic attacks on foreign Africans a few years ago illustrates this.
The ANC don’t mind though. They’re all voting fodder for them. The less well educated or ill informed, the better.

See the constant dumbing down of state education in South Africa for this.

There has been more than one black politician or public figure that has stated publically that education for black folk was actually under apartheid.

There are an awful amount of myths bandied around about apartheid, as unjust as that system was.

One of them is that the Soweto uprisings were about black kids being forced to be educated only in Afrikaans across the board.
This simply wasn’t true, as a moments research will reveal.
It was utilised as a mobilising point very effectively though.

Petty apartheid was dismantelled largely by PW Botha, and from the early 1980’s for example, things like segregated busses were a thing of the past.
PW Botha offered to release Nelson Mandela in 1982, and again in 1985, if he simply renounced violence. This is a pretty normal and logical request, if you ask me.
Nelson Mandela rejected it.

Nelson Mandela himself paid public tribute to Botha for a wide range of things Botha did to hasten the end of apartheid from early on, but naturally, this doesn’t fit the narritive of the fairytale for the press, so most people remain utterly ignorant.

Like I said, there are many myths….

Yeh!! I suppose I could be a Mafia God Father……

I see you more as a horses head for hire.. :p

Starting to look and make your own judgements now, that’s good. Said my piece and have nothing to add really, just such a pity the country hasn’t yet become what it could and might one day. It’s paradise, potentially. Just need the value of life to rise considerably.

Yeh!! I suppose I could be a Mafia God Father…………:p. And your right, just having ONE man to blame, we have 650, plus all our EU reps etc, do we REALLY need that many to run a small spec of an Island.
jim.
Lincoln .7

Linc – sometimes I think you’d be happier in Russia where they make little pretence at democracy and you’ve only got one man to blame!!;)

Having read the “Stats” on the ANC, Mandela was quite willing to kill thousands of his own kind, “For the cause”. , if you wan’t to be a Nobel Prize winner, just go out and murder a few hundred, like Errrr, let’s start off with Westminister lot.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Wilhelm – were the benefits you referred to equally available to blacks and whites and equally provided?

I wonder if they can take their Christmas pressies back, I realise socks or silly jumpers with Nelson on might be difficult, but the rest should be ok.

So does South Africa hand out free food to those without work in the townships? I am not getting at you but asking how it works.

There is a social welfare system in place, albeit nothing like Europe.

Social grants make up the bulk of government spending, and there are various social grants available.

Once again, a lot of this system was in place well before 1994.
In other words, during apartheid, which is another little fact that is seldom mentioned, as it doesn’t fit the storyline.

http://www.sanlam.co.za/wps/wcm/connect/sanlam_en/sanlam/investor+relations/economic+information/economic+commentary/the+sustainability+of+the+south+african+welfare+state

Mandela was one of the few politicians I had any respect for,sure he started out on the violent side but he did renounce violence and in the end seemed to become a genuine statesman !

A bit like the pope then 🙂 Actung Lancaster

I know Charlie – I worked in Africa some years ago and my colleagues out there could not believe the personal freedom that we take for granted : (