Nelson Mandela

Wilhelm………………..Now you can understand why there is a BLOCK facility on the Forum…….You can ignore any Pillock you want…:D
Jim.
Lincoln .7

…blah…blah…blah…

To paraphrase you: “OK. I’ll ask one more time.”

Give us the “identities” of the pipeline worker victims.

Give us the “identities” of the Church Street car bomb victims.

For good measure, give us the “identities” of the workers, civilians, and families in the north of the country killed and maimed by landmines.

I’m calling you on your own “logic” here, and using exactly the same criteria you did originally.

I suppose none of this happened, even though Mr Mandela himself has acknowledged it.

Nothing personal, but your way of asking for “identities” of victims by way of a 2 minute google search is deeply flawed.
This does not mean, as the evidence of the Church Street car bomb proves, that it did not happen.

Hundreds of thousands of handgrenades and anti-personnel mines smuggled in under his auspices should also be a little clue.
Anybody here amongst us who has also served in the infantry can tell you these devices are unsuitable for sabotage due to the nature of their construction and explosive content.

They have only one use.

Sadly and as usual you resort to insult. “Vacuous” “Addled” “Pathetic”
If you cannot get your point across without resorting to petty naming calling and insult then you can continue your diatribe without reply from me.

I know about these incidents, I’m just trying to understand how Nelson Mandela was guilty of murder in these cases when he was in jail at the time. The South African laws on murder must be different from the UK. In the UK you generally have to have committed the crime in order to be found guilty of it. As you well know, Nelson Mandela was never charged or convicted of murder but that has been ignored – as usual. You’ve also missed the bits about the South African Defence forces cross-border operations and the many that they killed. In some eyes they might be regarded as “freedom fighter” but by others as terrorists.

You have ignored the numerous times I have mentioned about how Nelson Mandela was not a saint or that he did indeed take to violence but obviously you ignore those bits to get your point across.

Anyway, I can’t bothered with any of this. It isn’t going to change the minds of anyone, least of all those whose minds are closed already.

OK, I’ll ask one more time. When and where did Nelson Mandela plant bombs that killed people prior to his jailing in 1964? How many people did he personally kill and what were their identities? As you say there is plenty of evidence so it must be easy to find.

Right.

In his book “Long Walk to Freedom”, Nelson Mandela states that he personally approved and signed off on the Church Street bombings in Pretoria in 1983.
You know, the one that killed 19 and maimed over 200 more from a car bomb detonated in rush hour pedestrain traffic.

Using your pathetic strawman argument, why don’t you provide us with a list of the identities of those victims?

If you can’t find them on the internet, by your vacuous logic, the bombing didn’t happen, and Nelson Mandela is himself telling fairy tales of an incident that didn’t happen.

I could provide gruesome footage of this event that “didn’t happen”, but I won’t, to spare the other forum members, plus we all know it won’t change your addled outlook.

The same way that the 6 pipeline workers (black btw) who were killed doing their job when he wasn’t jailed didn’t happen either, eh?
Because the internet doesn’t spit out their identities.

Can you see how pathetic your argument is?

I don’t think you do, as you would not have posted a reply such as …

A piece of good advice, especially when someone dies, is , if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.

…on a discussion forum.

By all means continue with your uncritical, slavish adulation, and ignore the wrongs.

Others, such as myself, acknowledge the good that he has done, but have grave reservations of the violence and killing he initiated, of which he himself acknowledges.

You clearly haven’t even read A long walk to Freedom, as you would have found the answers you obviously aren’t seeking in there.

You seem quite willing to try and debate from a position of profound ignorance on even the basics, based on uncritical hero worship.

Re 95

It’s a pity you weren’t around when Mandela appeared in Court on these ‘trumped up’ charges. You’d have secured an acquittal plus 500 Rand from public funds.

Does Nelson Mandela have to have ‘personally killed’ anybody to make him guilty of murder?

Er….. Yes. Was he even charged with murder?

I’m not coming down on one side of this argument or the other but (and I can’t believe I’m saying this)…

…by that definition Hitler wasn’t a murderer either!

I claim Godwin’s Law….. and therefore the natural conclusion of the thread………

How many people did he personally kill and what were their identities?

Does Nelson Mandela have to have ‘personally killed’ anybody to make him guilty of murder?

I’m not coming down on one side of this argument or the other but (and I can’t believe I’m saying this)…

…by that definition Hitler wasn’t a murderer either!

What do you think happens when you plant bombs in public areas?

Do you think Umkhonto we Sizwe was a knitting club?

There is no excuse for ignorance when there is plenty of evidence before you.

OK, I’ll ask one more time. When and where did Nelson Mandela plant bombs that killed people prior to his jailing in 1964? How many people did he personally kill and what were their identities? As you say there is plenty of evidence so it must be easy to find.

Having a political opinion isn’t something you are “guilty” of.

Exactly; but you seemed to be making that ‘accusation’.

How absolutely pathetic !!!

For all the undoubted good he has done, in 10 years time the violent beginnings will be airbrushed from history.

That’s possible – 20 years maybe. Does it matter in the great scheme of things? After all history has a long history of being distorted and I have no doubt that many events of the 20th century will be forgotten or misreported in a decade or two. Time is a fine deceiver of the truth.

Nail on head -sums it all up for me 🙂

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520662/Neil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html

Pathetic.

The canonization has begun.

For all the undoubted good he has done, in 10 years time the violent beginnings will be airbrushed from history.

Mandela was no saint but neither was he an evil murdering terrorist.

What do you think happens when you plant bombs in public areas?

Do you think Umkhonto we Sizwe was a knitting club?

There is no excuse for ignorance when there is plenty of evidence before you.

For me his good outweighs his bad and that overall he made a positive and beneficial contribution to the world we live in rather than a negative one. But he was and became no saint, and is in danger of being “canonised” as one.

Nail on head -sums it all up for me 🙂

OK ,if you were on Mandelas side he was a hero.
If you opposed Mandela he was a traitor,murderer and anything else you can think of.
If you were away from it all ,looking from the outside in you have to base your opinions from many sources and from people you may know who have insight. SIMPLES.

Surely the “two halves” of his life are will recorded and indisputable. Having put violence behind him and reconciliation in front of him once he was released the judgement to be made is whether or not he was a force for good during the latter years. For me his good outweighs his bad and that overall he made a positive and beneficial contribution to the world we live in rather than a negative one. But he was and became no saint, and is in danger of being “canonised” as one.

There are some very strange mindsets around.

You’re not kidding.

At his trial in 1964, I do not believe that murder was one of the charges. But if, as you seem so certain, Nelson Mandela was guilty of murder, perhaps you could enlighten us with the names of his victim(s). I couldn’t find that information.

I wonder how his Ground Force garden is doing.

Re 82

“…..evil, murdering terrorist…”

Well, according to the list of charges (see 76) he was. Maybe he wasn’t guilty of all of them !

“difficult to get at the truth? ” Only if you’re trying to defend the indefensible.

There are some very strange mindsets around.

Not something you yourself are ever guilty of then? 😉

Having a political opinion isn’t something you are “guilty” of.

Having a search around the internet, it is actually very difficult to get at the truth. The right wing press seems to have taken it upon itself to try and accuse Nelson Mandela of all sorts of things – some of which were actually committed while he was in prison, some of which stretch the truth somewhat.

Mandela was no saint but neither was he an evil murdering terrorist.

OK ,if you were on Mandelas side he was a hero.
If you opposed Mandela he was a traitor,murderer and anything else you can think of.
If you were away from it all ,looking from the outside in you have to base your opinions from many sources and from people you may know who have insight. SIMPLES.